Shoot a swinger before it's activated?

[Scott R]

While there is no rule that says you can't engage before it is activated in a level 2 match, there is a rule that states it must be hidden prior to activation in a level2 match. Therefore it is an illegal stage.

Can you quote the rule(s) that makes this so?

[waktasz]

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to

be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to

activation.

2.1.8.5.1 Level I matches are encouraged but not required to

strictly comply with this requirement. The written stage

briefing may prohibit competitors from engaging certain

target(s) which may be visible prior to activation until

the operation of the activating mechanism has been ini-

tiated (see Rule 9.9.4).

[Scott R]

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to

be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to

activation.

2.1.8.5.1 Level I matches are encouraged but not required to

strictly comply with this requirement. The written stage

briefing may prohibit competitors from engaging certain

target(s) which may be visible prior to activation until

the operation of the activating mechanism has been ini-

tiated (see Rule 9.9.4).

Couldn't it be argued that a moving target set where a portion of it is visible prior to activation is not in fact an "Appearing Target". Or let me ask it this way, what attributes must a target have for 2.1.8.5 to apply to it? Are you not allowed to set a swinger without anything hiding it in it's pre-activated position, or partially hiding it. Must a swinger always be an appearing target (obscured prior to activation)?

Note: I am asking this as it pertains to level II and above.

[Skydiver]

"Appearing targets" (2.1.8.5) are not the only "moving targets" (9.9.3).

[Nik Habicht]

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to

be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to

activation.

2.1.8.5.1 Level I matches are encouraged but not required to

strictly comply with this requirement. The written stage

briefing may prohibit competitors from engaging certain

target(s) which may be visible prior to activation until

the operation of the activating mechanism has been ini-

tiated (see Rule 9.9.4).

Couldn't it be argued that a moving target set where a portion of it is visible prior to activation is not in fact an "Appearing Target". Or let me ask it this way, what attributes must a target have for 2.1.8.5 to apply to it? Are you not allowed to set a swinger without anything hiding it in it's pre-activated position, or partially hiding it. Must a swinger always be an appearing target (obscured prior to activation)?

Note: I am asking this as it pertains to level II and above.

Essentially 2.1.8.5 exists so that match staff at a Level 2 can't state in the WSB that you must activate prior to engaging.....

If you want it to be appearing, then set the stage so that it's not visible prior to activation. If you want to give folks the choice of say shooting a stationary head, vs. a moving full target, you theoretically could.....

The problem with that plan is found in rule 9.9.3 though:

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

I'm not sure I'd let that choice slide as an RM.....

[j0n]

Jon, Which stage was the swinger on that you are referring to? If it is the one I am thinking of, it may have been visible, but there were no shoots very close to it so it might have been a bit close to shoot it without activating it.

Stage 7. Basically a 20yd shot with 2/3 of the target obscured by a no shoot. Would have been easy to score a 2-charlie on it without touching the NS. A-zone hit would have been more difficult, but still doable.

Edited December 1, 2011 by j0n

[aztecdriver]

The word used is obscured. It doesn't say hidden. If before activation, and I can see a part of it, it's obscured. I like having those options there as a stage designer. Just make the COF the way it's supposed to be setting it up - and don't assume that just because it's moving - it will be moving before it's shot. IF you take those precautions - at all levels of matches, there will be no issues....

[West Texas Granny]

Oh no the targets moving . Oh what shall I do. Save the children. Sounds to me like a lot of people are darn right scared of having to activate a swinging target and then shoot it. You know if this old woman can do it I can't see why you younger,faster and more experienced shooters can't do it or maybe USPSA is more about speed then hitting a target. I know I've spilt someone's milk again. Look if you have a swinging target that requires activation well activate the target or get rid of those types of targets and just throw up another static target or those oversized pieces of steel that you can't miss even if your blind. Come on guys don't wimp out on me.

[spanky]

Oh no the targets moving . Oh what shall I do. Save the children. Sounds to me like a lot of people are darn right scared of having to activate a swinging target and then shoot it. You know if this old woman can do it I can't see why you younger,faster and more experienced shooters can't do it or maybe USPSA is more about speed then hitting a target. I know I've spilt someone's milk again. Look if you have a swinging target that requires activation well activate the target or get rid of those types of targets and just throw up another static target or those oversized pieces of steel that you can't miss even if your blind. Come on guys don't wimp out on me.

because it's about scoring the most amount of points in the least amount of time. if you don't want it to happen then hide it.

[ima45dv8]

....or maybe USPSA is more about speed then hitting a target......

Sometimes, it is. It's often said you can't miss fast enough to win, but I won a stage in my division last Sunday with a miss....because I did it damned fast.

The hit factor is what it is.

[aztecdriver]

The hit factor is what it is.

+1

[Schutzenmeister]

[...]

The problem with that plan is found in rule 9.9.3 though:

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

I'm not sure I'd let that choice slide as an RM.....

Nik

As a RM, I'd have a devil of a time supporting a failure to shoot at penalty on ANY target that has been shot - as evidenced by one or more bullet holes through the target.

[Skydiver]

[...]

The problem with that plan is found in rule 9.9.3 though:

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

I'm not sure I'd let that choice slide as an RM.....

Nik

As a RM, I'd have a devil of a time supporting a failure to shoot at penalty on ANY target that has been shot - as evidenced by one or more bullet holes through the target.

I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu of the thread about FTE's on targets engaged from under a wall because some of the logic applied there could possibly apply here as well.

Personally, though, since the rule is stated in black and white ( ;-) ) as opposed to the logic chain that had to be followed for shooting under a wall thread, I feel that the FTE's and misses should apply for a moving target that is not activated. To save on RO/CRO/RM headaches, though, the ideal stage setup should have a moving target as an appearing target that is hidden until activated.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Skydiver

[Nik Habicht]

[...]

The problem with that plan is found in rule 9.9.3 though:

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

I'm not sure I'd let that choice slide as an RM.....

Nik

As a RM, I'd have a devil of a time supporting a failure to shoot at penalty on ANY target that has been shot - as evidenced by one or more bullet holes through the target.

Yet, 9.9.3 seems to require that.....

Hence, my comment of not letting that choice slide, i.e. fixing it prior to the first shot being fired....

[aztecdriver]

I'm missing what the both of you are saying... if I can shoot a target then activate it that I need to activate it then shoot it? By 9.9.3?? I don't think so. Be a little clear where the FTE is coming from - I'm lost - then again - I'm at work and should be paying attention at work.

[sperman]

I think they are referring to shooting the target, but never activating it.

[EkuJustice]

Easiest thing to do is if you are shooting a target without activating it finish the COF then slowly walk to the area of the activator keeping the muzzel in a safe direction then activate it. Time is taken off the last shot.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm missing what the both of you are saying... if I can shoot a target then activate it that I need to activate it then shoot it? By 9.9.3?? I don't think so. Be a little clear where the FTE is coming from - I'm lost - then again - I'm at work and should be paying attention at work.

Here's what I suspect they meant when they wrote 9.9.3: You have an activating target that is hidden from view, prior to activation, and disappears from view at some point after activation -- so normally miss penalties would not apply. I suspect 9.9.3 exists, to punish not even activating the mechanism -- in other words, yes it's an optional bonus point target, but you still need to perfom whatever activity activates it.

The situation with a mover that is not hidden prior to activation and disappears creates a special conundrum: By a strict reading of the words of 9.9.3, it appears to say that the competitor who does not activate the target is penalized for both misses and FTE, regardless of having engaged the target.....

Just like Mike, I'd have a hard time calling misses on a target with holes in it, so if I were the RM, and one of the stages had a disappearing target that was visible prior to activation, I would ensure that the target would be hidden prior to activation, to avoid that sticky situation....

[Nik Habicht]

Easiest thing to do is if you are shooting a target without activating it finish the COF then slowly walk to the area of the activator keeping the muzzel in a safe direction then activate it. Time is taken off the last shot.

I once placed pretty well on a rifle stage by engaging everything from two positions, and by trading 4 delta hits for a 25 yard zigzag run through ropelines to open a port that would activate the movers.....

I still made the run, and opened the port, but it was off the clock.....

[West Texas Granny]

How can you fire a weapon after the time has stopped.

[remoandiris]

How can you fire a weapon after the time has stopped.

You're assuming the target is activated by a bullet. Plenty of targets are setup to be activated by hand.

[Nik Habicht]

How can you fire a weapon after the time has stopped.

Didn't. The movers were activated by the port cover being opened......

Worked on that stage, and maybe one other in a decade.....

[Skydiver]

How can you fire a weapon after the time has stopped.

Didn't. The movers were activated by the port cover being opened......

Worked on that stage, and maybe one other in a decade.....

If I recall correctly, there was also a level II match where some people opted to take C/D hits on a swinger that was only partially hidden. They stomped on the pressure pad to activate that swinger after they were done shooting, but before the unloaded and showed clear.

[paul788]

At this year's Memphis Charity match there was a stage where the first target was a popper that activated a Polish Plate Rack which was downrange behind a wall. I fired one round at the popper and ran to engage the plate rack which was stationary. I was later ordered to do a re-shoot. I felt that the call for a re-shoot was wrong. Several other shooters had used the same method and we all had to reshoot the stage. I never did hear the justification for the reshoot.

Paul

The re-shoot gods were unkind. It took five tries to complete the stage. Hit the popper and a plate would fall off the plate rack; hit one plate and it took another off; shoot six rds. and while reloading a plate would fall, the popper went down but the plate rack did not activate, etc.

[Schutzenmeister]

I'm missing what the both of you are saying... if I can shoot a target then activate it that I need to activate it then shoot it? By 9.9.3?? I don't think so. Be a little clear where the FTE is coming from - I'm lost - then again - I'm at work and should be paying attention at work.

Here's what I suspect they meant when they wrote 9.9.3: You have an activating target that is hidden from view, prior to activation, and disappears from view at some point after activation -- so normally miss penalties would not apply. I suspect 9.9.3 exists, to punish not even activating the mechanism -- in other words, yes it's an optional bonus point target, but you still need to perfom whatever activity activates it.

The situation with a mover that is not hidden prior to activation and disappears creates a special conundrum: By a strict reading of the words of 9.9.3, it appears to say that the competitor who does not activate the target is penalized for both misses and FTE, regardless of having engaged the target.....

Just like Mike, I'd have a hard time calling misses on a target with holes in it, so if I were the RM, and one of the stages had a disappearing target that was visible prior to activation, I would ensure that the target would be hidden prior to activation, to avoid that sticky situation....

USPSA rules do not adequately cover this situation, IMO. By contrast, IPSC rules - especially the reworded portions of 9.9 for 2012 - deal with this in a much better fashion. Effectively, such a target is not "disappearing" and failing to activate the mechanisim does not apply as you can shoot it without having to activate it. USPSA 9.9.3 clearly was written to account for a target that is not visible prior to activation ... hence the dilemma.

As every one of the RMI's will tell you during course design ... If you are going to have a target be activated, HIDE it before it is activated. If you do this properly, there is no dilemma. The other solution would be to get the BoD to consider the new wording under the IPSC rules. You choose - Which do you think will be the easier route!