Distance = Time and visa versa

[Steven Cline]

Before I post the question, I fully understand that the answers will be different per shooter, but that's what I am looking for anyways. How you would answer. Also, physcial moving speed might play, but that's for individuals to consider and factor into their answer, I'm looking for that as well.

Have you ever calculated how much faster you can shoot the closer you get the a target (or visa versa)?

If I presented you this shooting challenge (and didn't follow the CRO rule of no more than 10' between shooting postions):

Presume you start at postion 1. Presume vision barriers which prevent engaging targets top L and R from nowhere but 1 and 5 for top L; 3 and 6 for top R. The middle targets can only be engaged through ports in walls. You will have to run up the center of the "I" to at least position 4.

1) How far would postion 1 - 5 have to be before you would not engage the top left targets from 1 but instead move from 4 to 5 to shoot them?

2) Now consider the move from 4 to 5 to 6, how far would 1 - 5 and 3 - 6 be before you'd say that the move from 4 to 5 then to 6 would have to be before it washes out for you?

3) Finally, how far would the targets at 3 have to be before you'd condsider moving towards 3 and away from 2 requiring a back track.

These questions are based on the premise that with distance comes slower shooting to ensure hits and always the risk of less points per shot. Closer targets can be shot faster with less risk of lost points. It's all about efficiency and balanced risk.

[poopshooter]

if i didnt have to do a hard lean i would engage them out to 15-18yd buuut...i shoot production so that would call for a static reload so no way! i would reload 4 times on that stage taking all the shots quite fast with sloppy sight pictures.

thats alot of sots btw isnt 32 the cap?

[juan]

I would shoot long range at 1

that would keep me from moving from 5 to 6 or 6 to 5

distances Im not sure really need to walk this one.

[Supermoto]

I figure every step is going to cost me .2s and transition/splits will be about the same at 10ys, so count the step and work from there. I really think it will come down to how jammed up in the ports I get. If I can flow thru there quickly, then there is a better chance I will move up. Otherwise I will end there

Edited November 25, 2011 by Supermoto

[grapemeister]

As a B class production shooter, I would take the far targets from position 1 and 3 if the targets are no further than about 20 yards, and the distance between shooting positions, left to right is at least 10 yards.

I think the distance and the time it takes to move left to right at both ends of the course is the biggest deciding factor for me. That, and can I cut across the corners at both ends of the course, or are there walls to keep me from cutting corners. In other words, can I run outside the shooting area to get from one position to another.

In most scenarios I can think of, the far targets down range to the left and right would be shot from positions 1 and 3.

Edited November 26, 2011 by grapemiester

[Hi-Power Jack]

I figure every step is going to cost me .2s

I'll have to try that = seems very fast to me to be able to

take five steps in one second, though? Maybe that's why I'm

a B OPEN and C Limited:(

Jack

[poopshooter]

is this how you intended the stage to be layed out? black being wall

thats how i based my plan

[Bubber]

If I have to be at position 5 & 6 anyway that's where I would take my shots. Even only having an 8 shot singlestack there would be no call for a standing reload. And you have to be there anyway, it is faster to take two hits close than lean for two hits. But I shoot a revo so much for plans. later rdd

[Sin-ster]

The vast majority of the time, avoiding travel and set up at a new shooting position is going to trump any time shaved from the splits of engaging targets at closer ranges. It's hard to make up for "dead time" by going faster when you're actually on the trigger.

Now, that said-- in a Division with a magazine capacity limit, you have to factor in necessary dead time for each reload. Since a Production shooter like myself has to travel to position 4 anyway in order to engage those targets through the ports, and will have to drop a few mags no matter how you break down the stage, it might indeed change the plan relative to what types of distances we're talking about-- but *not* shooting distances, travel distances.

Based on the diagram and the principles we're trying to test out here, ideally I would...

Shoot the 3 targets from Position 1, and then 2 more down range at the top left from that position.

Reload while crossing to Position 3, and repeat for the right side.

Reload while moving to Position 2, engage the middle targets as they were visible while moving up the center to Position 4.

Reload on the way to 5, engage the remaining 2 targets there, then full sprint to 6 for the final 2 targets on that side.

Saves one magazine change, over what appears to be a long bit of travel. I've found fighting with the magazine for the first second of exit from an array and travel to the next slows me down notably when compared with simply moving. It also alleviates any concerns for a fumble, improper arrival at the next array, etc. On the surface, the plan I've laid out leaves you without a make up unless you're willing to go into slidelock on the first two arrays-- and you still just get one! However, you'll have 11 in the gun for the final 4 targets, and you *will* be closer-- so if you called a bad shot from Position 1 or 3 on the back targets you engaged, there's still room to make them up, and now with much quicker transitions and slightly improved splits.

If I'm shooting a Division that won't require a standing reload, I'm shooting all visible argets from Position 1 and 3, regardless of their distance (as the lost time for splits and transitions on the longer targets, for me anyway, will never compare to the time spent travelling to both arrays). This of course assumes at least reasonable distances-- if you're talking 50+ yards, my sheer lack of confidence at those ranges might dictate some running!

ETA-- I'm fast on my feet, and still feel this way.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Sin-ster

[waktasz]

Good thread. I was just thinking about this the other day. Subscribed to hear the answers.

[Steven Cline]

if i didnt have to do a hard lean i would engage them out to 15-18yd buuut...i shoot production so that would call for a static reload so no way! i would reload 4 times on that stage taking all the shots quite fast with sloppy sight pictures.

thats alot of sots btw isnt 32 the cap?

Yes you correctly devined the walls, but not so hard of a lean.

At 20 yards you start to question the time to make good hits over the time to cover the distance. Thank you for sharing.

Level III has the 32 rnd cap... at Level II and I no cap is specified in the rules. 1.2.1.3. Every so often I throw a longer than usual COF at shooters.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Steven Cline

[Steven Cline]

I figure every step is going to cost me .2s and transition/splits will be about the same at 10ys, so count the step and work from there. I really think it will come down to how jammed up in the ports I get. If I can flow thru there quickly, then there is a better chance I will move up. Otherwise I will end there

Thank you.

Can you clarify for me. You are generally figuring 4-5 5-6 is calculated at .2 seconds per step. If it were 4 or 5 steps (.8 - 1 second) 4-5 and say 10 - 12 steps 5-6 (2 - 2.4 seconds) for a total of 2.8 - 3.2 seconds total time movement... how far would 1 - 5 / 3 - 6 to make it not worth steps? 25 yards? 30 yards? Split that up and you get to spend 1.4 - 1.6 seconds more on accuracy at distance over the time it would take to get the same hits at the closer position. Basically you get .1 second more pers shot. If you'd be splittin' at .2 you could take .3...

At what distance does .3 not get you a 90% chance at an A?? Is that the question?

As Juan observed the Pro/Rev/SS guys have to figure the cost of a stationary or near stationary reload. But, Limited/Open guys wouldn't.

[Steven Cline]

As a B class production shooter, I would take the far targets from position 1 and 3 if the targets are no further than about 20 yards, and the distance between shooting positions, left to right is at least 10 yards.

I think the distance and the time it takes to move left to right at both ends of the course is the biggest deciding factor for me. That, and can I cut across the corners at both ends of the course, or are there walls to keep me from cutting corners. In other words, can I run outside the shooting area to get from one position to another.

In most scenarios I can think of, the far targets down range to the left and right would be shot from positions 1 and 3.

Thank you, sir. For you after 20 yards you begin to re-evaluate the distance. Cool.

And no, the walls would keep you from cutting the corner. 90 deg turn eithe direction.

[Rustyzx9]

This a really interesting thread. I've only been shooting for about 2 years, and currently shoot limited.

My thought on this setup is that if the back targets are wide open and within 20 yards or so, shooting them from 1 and 3 would be the way to go for me. I find that the distance shots like these seem to take forever but eliminating positions 5 and 6 and the back tracking involved would trump the extra time up front. Also, based on my previous assumption of the distances involved I think I'd shoot the front targets from position 2 then move up to 4. I move ok for a big guy but skipping stops, backtracking, and positions is high on my list when stage planning.

[Steven Cline]

If I have to be at position 5 & 6 anyway that's where I would take my shots. Even only having an 8 shot singlestack there would be no call for a standing reload. And you have to be there anyway, it is faster to take two hits close than lean for two hits. But I shoot a revo so much for plans. later rdd

No sir, you don't have to be at 5 and 6. You could choose to shoot them from out at 1 and 3. At what distances would you choose to go to 5/6 or shoot 'em from 1/3?

[Steven Cline]

The vast majority of the time, avoiding travel and set up at a new shooting position is going to trump any time shaved from the splits of engaging targets at closer ranges. It's hard to make up for "dead time" by going faster when you're actually on the trigger.

Now, that said-- in a Division with a magazine capacity limit, you have to factor in necessary dead time for each reload. Since a Production shooter like myself has to travel to position 4 anyway in order to engage those targets through the ports, and will have to drop a few mags no matter how you break down the stage, it might indeed change the plan relative to what types of distances we're talking about-- but *not* shooting distances, travel distances.

Based on the diagram and the principles we're trying to test out here, ideally I would...

Shoot the 3 targets from Position 1, and then 2 more down range at the top left from that position.

Reload while crossing to Position 3, and repeat for the right side.

Reload while moving to Position 2, engage the middle targets as they were visible while moving up the center to Position 4.

Reload on the way to 5, engage the remaining 2 targets there, then full sprint to 6 for the final 2 targets on that side.

Saves one magazine change, over what appears to be a long bit of travel. I've found fighting with the magazine for the first second of exit from an array and travel to the next slows me down notably when compared with simply moving. It also alleviates any concerns for a fumble, improper arrival at the next array, etc. On the surface, the plan I've laid out leaves you without a make up unless you're willing to go into slidelock on the first two arrays-- and you still just get one! However, you'll have 11 in the gun for the final 4 targets, and you *will* be closer-- so if you called a bad shot from Position 1 or 3 on the back targets you engaged, there's still room to make them up, and now with much quicker transitions and slightly improved splits.

If I'm shooting a Division that won't require a standing reload, I'm shooting all visible argets from Position 1 and 3, regardless of their distance (as the lost time for splits and transitions on the longer targets, for me anyway, will never compare to the time spent travelling to both arrays). This of course assumes at least reasonable distances-- if you're talking 50+ yards, my sheer lack of confidence at those ranges might dictate some running!

ETA-- I'm fast on my feet, and still feel this way.

Excellent reply, thank you.

For you, any non-stoopid distance for Lim/Open is shot from 1 and 3.

Indulge me. If I made 2 - 4 about 30 yards and a short move from 4-5 and 5-6 (say 2 steps 4-5 and 4 steps 5-6) would that change your mind?

Thanks.

[Steven Cline]

This a really interesting thread. I've only been shooting for about 2 years, and currently shoot limited.

My thought on this setup is that if the back targets are wide open and within 20 yards or so, shooting them from 1 and 3 would be the way to go for me. I find that the distance shots like these seem to take forever but eliminating positions 5 and 6 and the back tracking involved would trump the extra time up front. Also, based on my previous assumption of the distances involved I think I'd shoot the front targets from position 2 then move up to 4. I move ok for a big guy but skipping stops, backtracking, and positions is high on my list when stage planning.

You, sir, are ahead of me. I didn't want to discuss the savings gained by shootng the three target array while backing to 2, turn while reloading and shooting the postion 3 targets at distance from 2 (if possible), then take the targets up the center and out to 5 and 6.

I love this sport.

But not yet. Let's please stay focused on just the shot at distance or run form 4 evaluation. Thanks!

[Rustyzx9]

This a really interesting thread. I've only been shooting for about 2 years, and currently shoot limited.

My thought on this setup is that if the back targets are wide open and within 20 yards or so, shooting them from 1 and 3 would be the way to go for me. I find that the distance shots like these seem to take forever but eliminating positions 5 and 6 and the back tracking involved would trump the extra time up front. Also, based on my previous assumption of the distances involved I think I'd shoot the front targets from position 2 then move up to 4. I move ok for a big guy but skipping stops, backtracking, and positions is high on my list when stage planning.

You, sir, are ahead of me. I didn't want to discuss the savings gained by shootng the three target array while backing to 2, turn while reloading and shooting the postion 3 targets at distance from 2 (if possible), then take the targets up the center and out to 5 and 6.

I love this sport.

But not yet. Let's please stay focused on just the shot at distance or run form 4 evaluation. Thanks!

lol, fair enough... 20 yards or so is my threshold and when I start thinking about getting closer.

[Sin-ster]

Excellent reply, thank you.

For you, any non-stoopid distance for Lim/Open is shot from 1 and 3.

Indulge me. If I made 2 - 4 about 30 yards and a short move from 4-5 and 5-6 (say 2 steps 4-5 and 4 steps 5-6) would that change your mind?

Thanks.

With a required 30 yards of travel, and then a total of 6 steps "extra", I would certainly have more to think about!

Now however the question becomes where to stage reloads for each Division. With only 2 quick steps from 4-5 and 4 steps from 5-6, it behooves me to not be fiddling with magazines if at all possible. For Open, it's easily solved by reloading to the big stick after positions 1 and 3, leaving movement to the distant positions still feasible. However, the dot and comp should make the splits on the further targets quicker than they'd be in another Division-- maybe to the point of "breaking even". For Limited, it's still going to be a short count after the "hallway", although the use of irons at 30 yards might justify the short steps with a reload...

Sadly, I only shoot Production, so it's hard to say for sure! What I can tell you is that moving one target from the two distant arrays into the closer ones at each side, and then putting everything at the distances you're talking about would almost certainly alter my plan and see me traveling the full length of the CoF in both Limited and Open. With a gun that doesn't need to be fed and open targets at close distances, I can get into and out of positions quickly enough to off set time lost in splits/transitions at 30 yard+ targets-- even when it's only 6 shots per side, instead of 8. ESPECIALLY shooting Major, where 90-95% of the points is easier to achieve. And I'd feel a lot better about getting the points at those ranges at the same time-- which is a huge deal for me, as confidence is key in our sport!

[Flexmoney]

Set it up and see what happens.

Then, run it at a later match and change things up a bit. Note the differences.

Let us know how it turns out.

[Skydiver]

If the distant targets had no shoots or hard cover on them but still left about 50% A zones and full upper panels, would it be sufficient to make Open or Limited shooters opt for closer shots?

[MarkCO]

Three questions before I answer please...

What is the scoring (HF or Time Plus)?

What is the construction of the red "I" (ie width and surface)?

What is the target (steel, full sized paper)?

[Steven Cline]

Three questions before I answer please...

What is the scoring (HF or Time Plus)?

What is the construction of the red "I" (ie width and surface)?

What is the target (steel, full sized paper)?

Anwers:

HF

hmmm, fault lines on flat ground, 5' wide on the narrow

Metric, wide open... for now (Muahahahahahahahahaha

[MarkCO]

With the above answers, and presuming that the drawing illustrates approximate spatial relationships...

1) How far would postion 1 - 5 have to be before you would not engage the top left targets from 1 but instead move from 4 to 5 to shoot them? 40 yards

2) Now consider the move from 4 to 5 to 6, how far would 1 - 5 and 3 - 6 be before you'd say that the move from 4 to 5 then to 6 would have to be before it washes out for you? There are 2 answers, 40 yards (D from 1-5) and 15 yards (4 to 5 to 6)

3) Finally, how far would the targets at 3 have to be before you'd condsider moving towards 3 and away from 2 requiring a back track. 25 yards

[poopshooter]

my new production plan, thought about it a bit with the input of the other folks

i like the idea of not traversing the top of the 'T' and this plan gives me a 1 mag safty net if i malfunction or drop one. and only the "semi static" reload