gose Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Starting a new thread rather than continuing in the MG Nationals one... Here are two examples of a single prize table distribution based on division sizes One is based on awarding division winners and the other one is strictly on size. Doing it on based on a size formula seems more fair and objective than trying to compare shooters across divisions based on how they finished in relation to the division winner... To me it also seems fairer to award someone that finishes 5/200 higher than someone that finishes 5/10, but it would still most likely avoid the situation where the winner of one of the smaller divisions gets something really tiny. It also makes it easier for match organizers as they dont need to worry about what goes on which table... Example is based on data from RM3G 2011 and only shows the top 50. Based on size only Based on size with division winners first RM3G percentage based as reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) To me it also seems fairer... Being Subjective isn't going to help your cause. While I understand of wanting to create something that will work for everything, I believe it will never happen unless we look at the bigger picture objectively. Edited November 22, 2011 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) To me it also seems fairer... Being Subjective isn't going to help your cause. While I understand of wanting to create something that will work for everything, I believe it will never happen unless we look at the bigger picture objectively. The problem is that there is no objectively right, wrong or "fair" here. In a match with more than one division you will not be able to compare scores between them in a perfectly objective way, so I agree that something that's acceptable has to be worked out. However, I tried to look at the bigger picture while being as objective as possible and came up with a suggestion and idea. I'd love to hear how to approach this in an even more objective way though (and I mean that in a very honest, non-sarcastic way, I really do...) Edited November 22, 2011 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) Random Draw for walking the Prize table with Cash Pay out to the top shooters. LOL, I know its a easy left rather then the hard right. I've been thinking about this all day even before I saw your post, and I have a couple ideas that could be discussed but I would like to get them written down so I can present them intelligently(yea right! ) Edited November 22, 2011 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) I watched this argument go on for a year. I'm just going to shoot TO like everybody else. Edited November 23, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) Random Draw for walking the Prize table with Cash Pay out to the top shooters. LOL, I know its a easy left rather then the hard right. I've been thinking about this all day even before I saw your post, and I have a couple ideas that could be discussed but I would like to get them written down so I can present them intelligently(yea right! ) Yeah, I guess random draw is the most fair and objective way of distributing prizes, but if you do it, you should do it for all prizes/cash. I think random draws are the sucks. We go to matches to have fun and compete, if I wanted to take part in a raffle I'd buy a raffle ticket. Someone beating me should walk the prize table before me. However, there seems to be quite an interest in ProAm format matches, so there's definitely room for that as well. Edited November 23, 2011 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GForceLizard Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 % finish in class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Random Draw for walking the Prize table with Cash Pay out to the top shooters. LOL, I know its a easy left rather then the hard right. I've been thinking about this all day even before I saw your post, and I have a couple ideas that could be discussed but I would like to get them written down so I can present them intelligently(yea right! ) This is the conclusion that Scott and I came to for the Northwest Multigun Challenge. Top shooters in each class got a cash payout depending on the number of shooters in the division. All shooters, including the people that got a cash prize, got a random prize bag. There was a seperate drawing for the big prizes like guns and high dollar scopes. I've yet to hear a complaint. Some top shooters will not attend a match with this type of prize distribution and we understand that but we want the people that come because they love to shoot not just to win a prize. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 % finish in division, with a tiebreaker on number of people in the division was the best way we could think of for one table done by order-of-finish. You need top shooters in each division (or some way to grade on a curve), but except for that it works pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 This is the conclusion that Scott and I came to for the Northwest Multigun Challenge. Top shooters in each class got a cash payout depending on the number of shooters in the division. All shooters, including the people that got a cash prize, got a random prize bag. There was a seperate drawing for the big prizes like guns and high dollar scopes. I've yet to hear a complaint. Some top shooters will not attend a match with this type of prize distribution... Sounds to me like some of your better shooters are complaining as loud and clear as they can. ...and we understand that but we want the people that come because they love to shoot not just to win a prize. Seems if that were the case you wouldn't have to give prizes away at all, random or otherwise. If I'm not mistaken prior polls indicate roughly 75% of BrianEnos.com members prefer a distribution based on order of finish rather than random drawing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) I like the random draw tables myself especially on matches shot over multiple days. In order of finish, if you don't shoot the last day you either stay around for your prize or pretty much give it up unless you have someone pick for you. If it is one where say division winner gets a certain prize that makes it a little better as its set, if you win this is what you get no matter what day you are there. Cash prizes or other set prizes for the winner, drawing for everyone else. At the KY state you pull your prize as you go through the stages. It is nice because the sponsors prizes give eveyone an equal chance to get something worth while and get the sponsor's name out there which is really why they give the prizes. Been on both ends of the spectrum in different shooting sports. Uspsa im sitting in C and am pretty much middle of the pack on the 3gun matches. When I shot Skeet I was a competative AAA across the board and was in the running for the HOA and gun champs on a very regular basis. Bigger question is how do the sponsors feel the stuff they gave away should be distributed? Edited November 24, 2011 by EkuJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 % finish in division, with a tiebreaker on number of people in the division was the best way we could think of for one table done by order-of-finish. You need top shooters in each division (or some way to grade on a curve), but except for that it works pretty well. That sounds as fair and simple as any I've heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 % finish in division, with a tiebreaker on number of people in the division was the best way we could think of for one table done by order-of-finish. You need top shooters in each division (or some way to grade on a curve), but except for that it works pretty well. That sounds as fair and simple as any I've heard. Just would definately need the top end shooters in all divisions like he said to make it fair. good shooters in most divisions then one "superstar" ie taren, jerry, horner etc and it can really alter the results if say they get 100 percent then other good but not super shooters are sitting aound 85-90 percent. Shooter in the other division has a good shooter at the top who would have been competative with all the other 85-90 percenters in the other group. By him winning,his division all the other shooters are closer to that 100 percent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 % finish in division, with a tiebreaker on number of people in the division was the best way we could think of for one table done by order-of-finish. You need top shooters in each division (or some way to grade on a curve), but except for that it works pretty well. That sounds as fair and simple as any I've heard. Just would definately need the top end shooters in all divisions like he said to make it fair. good shooters in most divisions then one "superstar" ie taren, jerry, horner etc and it can really alter the results if say they get 100 percent then other good but not super shooters are sitting aound 85-90 percent. Shooter in the other division has a good shooter at the top who would have been competative with all the other 85-90 percenters in the other group. By him winning,his division all the other shooters are closer to that 100 percent Yeah, thats the main problem with the percentage based system, if you have a superstar in one division, or a division without any really good shooters, it favors the divisions with the "worst" winners. On the other hand, if you go for a rank and size system like I outlined above, a small division with several really good shooters gets screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 The way to be objective is to agree on why a person should get a prize. Since this is a competition, I think most people would agree that the better that a person shoots the match, the better the prize they should get. That is relative to everyone else's performance. Ideally, this would be done across all divisions. In reality, its not possible to do across all divisions for one prize table, due to differing equipment and rules for different divisions, so the best that can be done is to separate the prizes into multiple prize tables based on how many people entered each division. Then people should walk the respective tables in order of finish, by division. Everyone pays a match fee, and usually part of that fee goes for some prizes (in addition to the ones given outright by sponsors)--so it makes sense to allocate that money, and the prizes, towards the divisions that people entered into proportionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 everyone pays a match fee, It makes more sense to use the match fees to make a better match. Let sponsors and donated prizes fund and build the prize tables then It really doesnt matter how they get handed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Yeah, thats the main problem with the percentage based system, if you have a superstar in one division, or a division without any really good shooters, it favors the divisions with the "worst" winners. On the other hand, if you go for a rank and size system like I outlined above, a small division with several really good shooters gets screwed. True, and that's the problem, but in my experience at the larger matches where they have prize tables, their tends to be more than one superstar and they often divide themselves among divisions. None of the methods are perfect, but Shred's seems as good as any and easy to administer, particularly if you want to have just one table. So I don't think there is a perfect system, just the best among alternatives. Worst among alternatives, is a random drawing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 This is the conclusion that Scott and I came to for the Northwest Multigun Challenge. Top shooters in each class got a cash payout depending on the number of shooters in the division. All shooters, including the people that got a cash prize, got a random prize bag. There was a seperate drawing for the big prizes like guns and high dollar scopes. I've yet to hear a complaint. Some top shooters will not attend a match with this type of prize distribution... Sounds to me like some of your better shooters are complaining as loud and clear as they can. ...and we understand that but we want the people that come because they love to shoot not just to win a prize. Seems if that were the case you wouldn't have to give prizes away at all, random or otherwise. If I'm not mistaken prior polls indicate roughly 75% of BrianEnos.com members prefer a distribution based on order of finish rather than random drawing. Actually we had several national level shooters from out of state attend our match. They came even though it was not advertised as a prize match. Not a penny of match fees was put into the prize table but we still had over $40,000 worth of donations to give out to shooters. Match fees were used for prize money that was given to the winners. I don't think the poll that was taken included cash payouts to winners, but I have seen big shooters skip a prize in favor of a check for a lesser amount. My observation has been that high dollar prizes are often on sale soon after the match. If I were a vendor I would much rather see my donation used instead of sold. A hybrid system of prize distribution worked for us last year but we intend to discuss next years system with match sponsors before finalizing. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 For heaven sake if you are going to do random distribution, give the prizes out with registration so you don't waste everyone's time after the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 For heaven sake if you are going to do random distribution, give the prizes out with registration so you don't waste everyone's time after the match. That would also give you time to barter with fellow shooters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 For heaven sake if you are going to do random distribution, give the prizes out with registration so you don't waste everyone's time after the match. Actually we gave out the prize bags while we were finalizing scores. After the awards were handed out we were done. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 The problem with 3gun is there typically are not classes like there are in the pistol matches where they award champ, the first in class at the prize table. If its entry fee paid, go from the top down or give out a set prize for the division etc. For the sponsor donated goods, I see no problem drawing tickets and you get what you get and the prizes have a better chance of actually being used as opposed to grab the most expensive, easiest thing to sell on the enos forum the next day. Look at some of the random draw guns being given out and how many of them are actually used and appreciated over the ones that were winner guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 % finish in class I'm sure you meant divisions... Don't mean to pick nits ... But DANG! That is brilliant!! Just take your placing in whatever division divide that by the number of shooters in that division VOILA! Then compare that to some shooter in whatever other division. SMART! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 For heaven sake if you are going to do random distribution, give the prizes out with registration so you don't waste everyone's time after the match. Not to mention you wouldn't have to stand around and listen to people applaud as if reaffirming the obvious......."yay, you have displayed enough skill to get your name drawn from a hat" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Actually we had several national level shooters from out of state attend our match. They came even though it was not advertised as a prize match. Not a penny of match fees was put into the prize table but we still had over $40,000 worth of donations to give out to shooters. Match fees were used for prize money that was given to the winners. I don't think the poll that was taken included cash payouts to winners, but I have seen big shooters skip a prize in favor of a check for a lesser amount. My observation has been that high dollar prizes are often on sale soon after the match. If I were a vendor I would much rather see my donation used instead of sold. A hybrid system of prize distribution worked for us last year but we intend to discuss next years system with match sponsors before finalizing. Doug I'm just going on what you said. Some top competitors don't shoot your match because of the prize distribution. That's a pretty loud and clear complaint. Nobody claimed that 'none' would show up so saying 'some' national level shooters did shoot the match does not change a thing. Also you are making it sound as if random drawings always give the winner something they can use and would never sell. I can assure you that is not the case. And last most shooters just don't like random drawings. It's a contest and most people want awards and prizes based on how well they do in the contest not in some raffle. This has all been hashed out in several old threads, and I don't really care to restate the same arguments, but regardless here's the poll results. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71470&hl=prize table poll&st=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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