Why pilots have checklists…

[Jollymon32]

Been doing USPSA type shooting for over a year now. Seems like I can “Show Clear”, “Hammer Down”, “Holster” in my sleep.

Come to think of it, I don’t even recall the movements while I am doing it, seems like they are buried in the subconscious and the actions come naturally.

How can this procedure, repeated ad-nauseam possibly be screwed up?

How can a seasoned aircraft pilot forget to lower the landing gear?

Well, it happened to me and I have learned a valuable lesson…

Simple stage: start sitting down, on buzzer stand up, load magazine, and engage the targets with standard dual hand grip. When done, clear firearm, place back on table. Repeat twice.

On subsequent strings, shoot with strong arm and finally with weak hand.

Stage went smooth until the completion of the final string.

RO issues command, “if done, show clear”

Mind takes over, “Let’s do the steps we have done a million times before”

Only difference now is that pistol is in weak hand. An additional step is required; shifting pistol from weak hand to strong hand.

Upon performing this one additional task, mind incorrectly checks off the first step of the clearing procedure. Mind is also running through a finely tuned timeframe perfectly in sync with the RO…

Second step, clear gun by racking the slide. “Must have worked, because a round is ejected… “ Auto pilot is now fully engaged… Did not notice that that slide did not lock back… “RO is a bit slow, let me get ahead of him….”

Mind issues command “Hammer Down”

Hammer goes down, Pistol goes “BOOM”

Mind goes “Whoa! Was not expecting this, could of sworn the round was ejected. Maybe it was not. Well it is now, let’s put the hammer down…”

Pistol goes “BOOM”

Mind goes out of autopilot and I take over…”WTF! “. Look at the pistol and sure enough magazine is still in.

RO ensures that we are all clear and I DQ myself and put away my gear (it was not a match, just a pistol shoot but I needed to drive the point home in my mind).

Lessons Learned:

Take mind out of auto-pilot when loading or clearing

Do not get ahead of the RO

And from one noob to all the other noobs:

The one thing that kept this AD from becoming a catastrophic event was, that buried in my subconscious and acting on autopilot, I kept the gun, AT ALL TIMES, pointed downrange.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Glad to hear no one got hurt ...

Thanks for the reality check - easy to get into

a habit and not think about what you're doing.

[gunshrink]

I did something much the same. Shot last target, hit mag release as I noticed a steel I had missed.... Mag back in and hit target, but mind was still on ejected mag, same thing and a new ole in the shooting wall and yes this was a match. Real easy to have brain fart but. Would be worse if we didn't learn from it. Hopefully this will be good for both of us and thank you for the added insight on the situation.

[benos]

Attention beats habit, every time.

I can still clearly remember when those words first came into my mind. It was years ago. My tub was very slippery, so I had one of those non-slip mats in the bottom of the bathtub. The shower was running, and as I stepped in with the first step - sloppily, not giving my full attention to what I was doing - the mat slipped on the bottom of the tub and I almost went down hard. I removed the mat from the tub, and since then, stepped in with my weight directly over my lead leg, every time.

be

[Roadrider18]

The title of this thread got my attention.

ATTENTION TO DETAIL(S)!

As a retired wide body Captain from the major airline that declared bankruptcy today, I can attest to proper use of checklists. They will save your butt every time; if you use them, properly!

I was a Check Airman (instructor pilot) for a while. I will never forget when an acquaintance called me to inform me he just got 2 weeks off, WITHOUT PAY. It seems he and the first officer got distracted by several unrelated events and managed to walk off the airplane with the right engine still running. In essence, they failed to complete the PARKING checklist. Fortunately nobody was hurt. They were out a half month's pay and burdened with embarrassment.

No matter the task, adhere to your (a) checklist, and ensure all steps are complete and the checklist is completed in its entirety.

Without adequate safety margins, everything else is meaningless.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Roadrider18

[blueeyedme]

Goodhelps son with a happy ending, however I will take issue with calling it an AD. Nothing accidental about - you pulled the trigger and it went bang like its supposed to. Like all ADs it's really an ND - negligent discharge. I'm glad to hear it ended with only a lesson.

Edited December 1, 2011 by blueeyedme

[drstrangelove]

I've done a little flying and one thing about checklists, they need to have the important stuff in them. We had a rash of AD/ND's at our local steel plate shoot a while back and I was one of them. Since then when told to unload and show clear, the only thing I look for is a clear chamber, everything else is secondary. Lesson learned. Like flying, There are few small mistakes.

[Lumpy8]

Why hasn't the RO been mentioned as being negligent?

I believe the RO that was running you should also get blamed in this ND, he should have been DQ'ed

Edited February 13, 2012 by Lumpy8

[foxriver6]

Why hasn't the RO been mentioned as being negligent?

I believe the RO that was running you should also get blamed in this ND, he should have been DQ'ed

Absolutely NOT! Shooters resposibility!

[ima45dv8]

Why hasn't the RO been mentioned as being negligent?

I believe the RO that was running you should also get blamed in this ND, he should have been DQ'ed

I don't think so.

[Lumpy8]

Why hasn't the RO been mentioned as being negligent?

I believe the RO that was running you should also get blamed in this ND, he should have been DQ'ed

I don't think so.

Why?

I'm not taking blame from the shooter, but the RO was negligent!

The slide/cylinder should never be closed until the RO positivity see's that the chamber is clear! If the RO has doubt's he should ask that the slide/cylinder be opened and locked back.

If a shooter gets ahead of the RO's commands the shooter needs to have a stern talking too.

Some old timers have a tendency to get ahead of the RO's commands and that is a recipe for disaster! These shooters need to let the RO do their job.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Lumpy8

[Jollymon32]

As explained in the story, I got ahead of the RO.

These days, When I am running shooters, in the stage briefing, I specifically make it a point that they cannot get ahead of me. I have also changed the command to 'Show ME clear', instead of 'Show Clear'.

[SLM]

In USPSA the command is "if clear...". It's a question to the shooter. It was taught in my RO class that it is specifically worded that way to make the shooter responsible and not the RO.

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

As explained in the story, I got ahead of the RO.

These days, When I am running shooters, in the stage briefing, I specifically make it a point that they cannot get ahead of me. I have also changed the command to 'Show ME clear', instead of 'Show Clear'.

I state to the shooter when he or she indicates they have finished the stage, "I see clear. Do you see clear?" and I wait for their confirmation they see a clear chamber. And then follow with, "Slide forward, hammer down, holster." Then, "We're clear. Bay is safe."

[rgkeller]

As explained in the story, I got ahead of the RO.

These days, When I am running shooters, in the stage briefing, I specifically make it a point that they cannot get ahead of me. I have also changed the command to 'Show ME clear', instead of 'Show Clear'.

I state to the shooter when he or she indicates they have finished the stage, "I see clear. Do you see clear?" and I wait for their confirmation they see a clear chamber. And then follow with, "Slide forward, hammer down, holster." Then, "We're clear. Bay is safe."

So much for the USPSA rulebook.

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

As explained in the story, I got ahead of the RO.

These days, When I am running shooters, in the stage briefing, I specifically make it a point that they cannot get ahead of me. I have also changed the command to 'Show ME clear', instead of 'Show Clear'.

I state to the shooter when he or she indicates they have finished the stage, "I see clear. Do you see clear?" and I wait for their confirmation they see a clear chamber. And then follow with, "Slide forward, hammer down, holster." Then, "We're clear. Bay is safe."

So much for the USPSA rulebook.

I don't shoot USPSA. And if it ensures safety of all present, then it should be allowed.

[Seth]

As explained in the story, I got ahead of the RO.

These days, When I am running shooters, in the stage briefing, I specifically make it a point that they cannot get ahead of me. I have also changed the command to 'Show ME clear', instead of 'Show Clear'.

I state to the shooter when he or she indicates they have finished the stage, "I see clear. Do you see clear?" and I wait for their confirmation they see a clear chamber. And then follow with, "Slide forward, hammer down, holster." Then, "We're clear. Bay is safe."

So much for the USPSA rulebook.

I don't shoot USPSA. And if it ensures safety of all present, then it should be allowed.

No. Safety comes from consistency. The rules in USPSA aren't written to allow for your interpretation. They're specific to prevent mistakes. If you follow the rules, the gun is empty, confirmed empty both visually and by dry fire.

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” – If the competitor hasfinished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection

by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine

removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty.

Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.

8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command,

the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing

to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must

perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:

8.3.7.1 Self-loaders – release the slide and pull the trigger (without

touching the hammer or decocker, if any).

8.3.7.2 Revolvers – close the empty cylinder (without touching the

hammer, if any).

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his

handgun.

8.3.7.4 If the gun does not prove to be clear, the Range Officer will

resume the commands from Rule 8.3.6 (also see Rule 10.4.3).

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

As explained in the story, I got ahead of the RO.

These days, When I am running shooters, in the stage briefing, I specifically make it a point that they cannot get ahead of me. I have also changed the command to 'Show ME clear', instead of 'Show Clear'.

I state to the shooter when he or she indicates they have finished the stage, "I see clear. Do you see clear?" and I wait for their confirmation they see a clear chamber. And then follow with, "Slide forward, hammer down, holster." Then, "We're clear. Bay is safe."

So much for the USPSA rulebook.

I don't shoot USPSA. And if it ensures safety of all present, then it should be allowed.

No. Safety comes from consistency. The rules in USPSA aren't written to allow for your interpretation. They're specific to prevent mistakes. If you follow the rules, the gun is empty, confirmed empty both visually and by dry fire.

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” – If the competitor hasfinished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection

by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine

removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty.

Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.

8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command,

the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing

to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must

perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:

8.3.7.1 Self-loaders – release the slide and pull the trigger (without

touching the hammer or decocker, if any).

8.3.7.2 Revolvers – close the empty cylinder (without touching the

hammer, if any).

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his

handgun.

8.3.7.4 If the gun does not prove to be clear, the Range Officer will

resume the commands from Rule 8.3.6 (also see Rule 10.4.3).

As I stated, I don't shoot IDPA. USPSA could adopt it, through a rulebook change.

[Seth]

Why would they do that? The process is simple, redundant, and successfully prevents failures....... This is the perfect case. The shooter failed to clear the gun, got ahead of the RO and the rote application of "If clear, hammer down, holster" proved that the gun was hot. The shooter recognized the failure and fixed it. Its so ingrained that the we naturally do it.

You are an IDPA shooter, right? I don't see any room for deviation in their rules either:

C 18. Range Commands to be used in IDPA shall be:

H. Unload and Show Clear. I. Slide Down or Cylinder Closed.

J. Hammer Down.

K. Holster.

L. Range Is Safe.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Seth

[ima45dv8]

USPSA could adopt it, through a rulebook change.

Yeah. We've had it wrong all this time.

[ima45dv8]

{snip}

I believe the RO that was running you should also get blamed in this ND, he should have been DQ'ed

I don't think so.

Why?

I'm not taking blame from the shooter, but the RO was negligent!

The slide/cylinder should never be closed until the RO positivity see's that the chamber is clear! If the RO has doubt's he should ask that the slide/cylinder be opened and locked back.

If a shooter gets ahead of the RO's commands the shooter needs to have a stern talking too.

Some old timers have a tendency to get ahead of the RO's commands and that is a recipe for disaster! These shooters need to let the RO do their job.

Just old timers? Again, I don't think so.

Young, old...still doesn't matter. Get ahead of the RO and prevent them from helping you to keep from DQ'ing yourself, and these are the sort of things that can happen.

It ain't the RO's fault.

[Lumpy8]

{snip}

I believe the RO that was running you should also get blamed in this ND, he should have been DQ'ed

I don't think so.

Why?

I'm not taking blame from the shooter, but the RO was negligent!

The slide/cylinder should never be closed until the RO positivity see's that the chamber is clear! If the RO has doubt's he should ask that the slide/cylinder be opened and locked back.

If a shooter gets ahead of the RO's commands the shooter needs to have a stern talking too.

Some old timers have a tendency to get ahead of the RO's commands and that is a recipe for disaster! These shooters need to let the RO do their job.

Just old timers? Again, I don't think so.

Young, old...still doesn't matter. Get ahead of the RO and prevent them from helping you to keep from DQ'ing yourself, and these are the sort of things that can happen.

It ain't the RO's fault.

STOP!!!

As a RO I do more than follow the shooter around with a timer.

My main responsibility is the safety of the shooter and others on the range. I keep a watchful eye on the shooters gun, hands and other movements that can end up being unsafe. I try, depending on the CoF to stay within a safe distance of the shooter to be able to put "hands on" to stop any movement that I consider unsafe.

I don't watch for target hits or steel falling.

At the end of a stage and I'm clearing a weapon, I do not allow the shooter to get ahead of me, I yell STOP! And then continue with directions until the gun is holstered and the range is safe.

At the local level the shooters that squad with me, know if they get ahead of me, I scare the sh!t out of them by yelling STOP.

If the shooter drops the slide and pulls the trigger thinking that the gun is clear and they get a bang, it's their fault and my fault as the RO for not yelling STOP.

This will be the end of my posts on this subject. Please agree to disagree and I'll do the same. If nothing else this thread has got us thinking of what is/isn't the responsibility of the shooter and RO.

Peace, out.

Lumpy

[ima45dv8]

STOP!!!

As a RO I do more than follow the shooter around with a timer.

My main responsibility is the safety of the shooter and others on the range. I keep a watchful eye on the shooters gun, hands and other movements that can end up being unsafe. I try, depending on the CoF to stay within a safe distance of the shooter to be able to put "hands on" to stop any movement that I consider unsafe.

I don't watch for target hits or steel falling.

At the end of a stage and I'm clearing a weapon, I do not allow the shooter to get ahead of me, I yell STOP! And then continue with directions until the gun is holstered and the range is safe.

At the local level the shooters that squad with me, know if they get ahead of me, I scare the sh!t out of them by yelling STOP.

If the shooter drops the slide and pulls the trigger thinking that the gun is clear and they get a bang, it's their fault and my fault as the RO for not yelling STOP.

This will be the end of my posts on this subject. Please agree to disagree and I'll do the same. If nothing else this thread has got us thinking of what is/isn't the responsibility of the shooter and RO.

Peace, out.

Lumpy

Yep. All I do is wander around behind shooters looking for lucky 4-leaf clovers. It never occurred to me to actually watch what is going on. I'll try that first chance I get. And as far as shooters doing things faster than I prefer, that's my fault, too.

And that idea of putting hands on the shooter sounds like a real winner. I wonder when I'll get to tackle someone?

Bail out if you need to. A man has to know his limitations.

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

USPSA could adopt it, through a rulebook change.

Yeah. We've had it wrong all this time.

I did not say that. But if that is the way you take it, then that is your interpretation.

[Jollymon32]

In USPSA the command is "if clear...". It's a question to the shooter. It was taught in my RO class that it is specifically worded that way to make the shooter responsible and not the RO.

So you assume this is a USPSA event. It was never stated that that it was or that I am running shooters in an USPSA event. I understand thAt USPSA has rules and if I ever run a USPSA stage, I will follow those. In the meantime, if I can lessen the risk of an accident by changing the Show Clear command, I will.