Barrel used as soft cover?

[JohnMc]

Haven't been shooting USPSA for a few years. Shot a club match today, where they completely cover a target with a barrel and called it soft cover. I was told that it is allowed

per USPSA rule book. I couldn't find a reference to it. ? Thanks.

[The Antichrome]

Haven't been shooting USPSA for a few years. Shot a club match today, where they completely cover a target with a barrel and called it soft cover. I was told that it is allowed

per USPSA rule book. I couldn't find a reference to it. ? Thanks.

4.1.4.2 Cover provided merely to obscure targets is considered soft

cover. Shots which have passed through soft cover and which

strike a scoring target will score. Shots that have passed through

soft cover before hitting a no-shoot will be penalized. All scoring

zones on targets hidden by soft cover must be left wholly

intact. Targets obscured by soft cover must either be visible

through the soft cover or a portion of the affected target(s) must

be visible from around or over the soft cover.

[waktasz]

4.1.4.2

[JohnMc]

Thanks

[remoandiris]

Help me understand the difference between hide and obscure.

4.1.4.1 Cover provided to hide all or a portion of a target will be considered

hard cover. When possible hard cover should not be simulated

but constructed using impenetrable materials (see Rule

2.1.3).

4.1.4.2 Cover provided merely to obscure targets is considered soft

cover.

Questions;

What is the difference between "hide" in 4.1.4.1 and "obscure" in 4.1.4.2? Hide and obscure are synonomous to me.

Does the reference to 2.1.3 in 4.1.4.1 imply metal, solid wood wall, railroad ties or similar material a bullet can not pass thru are the only things that should be used to make hard cover? That is how I read 4.1.4.1. Just wondering if you folks feel the same.

So, if a bullet CAN pass thru it, it is soft cover. If a bullet CAN NOT pass thru it, it is hard cover.

4.1.4.1 also implies painting hard cover on targets shouldn't be done.

Edited November 13, 2011 by remoandiris

[MarkCO]

Regardless of rule, it is very poor stage design. Barrels, metal and plastic, will deflect bullets. This alone alters the challenge based on the placement of the bullet through a no-scoring piece of material.

As for the rule, by definiiton, if you can tell the placement due to part of the target visibly sticking out, I would have a hard time saying that it was illegal by rule.

[Sarge]

Help me understand the difference between hide and obscure.

4.1.4.1 Cover provided to hide all or a portion of a target will be considered

hard cover. When possible hard cover should not be simulated

but constructed using impenetrable materials (see Rule

2.1.3).

4.1.4.2 Cover provided merely to obscure targets is considered soft

cover.

Questions;

What is the difference between "hide" in 4.1.4.1 and "obscure" in 4.1.4.2? Hide and obscure are synonomous to me.

Does the reference to 2.1.3 in 4.1.4.1 imply metal, solid wood wall, railroad ties or similar material a bullet can not pass thru are the only things that should be used to make hard cover? That is how I read 4.1.4.1. Just wondering if you folks feel the same.

So, if a bullet CAN pass thru it, it is soft cover. If a bullet CAN NOT pass thru it, it is hard cover.

4.1.4.1 also implies painting hard cover on targets shouldn't be done.

I hear ya'. But this is how I figured it out. Hiding is to make the target not visible at all. Obscuring breaks up the shape of the target or lessens it's visibility. A target behind a rock is not visible. A target behind a bush is obscured as long as you can make out the target.

Around here we use mesh snow fence as soft cover sometimes. It breaks up the target pattern and creates an illusion of difficulty.

We also shot through some of that" walk in cooler thick clear rubber flap stuff" one time last year. The targets were a blurr but still visible.

[Sarge]

hide

¹   [hahyd] Show IPA verb, hid, hid·den or hid,hid·ing, nounverb (used with object)1.to conceal from sight; prevent from being seen ordiscovered: Where did she hide her jewels?2.to obstruct the view of; cover up: The sun was hidden by theclouds.

ob·scure

   [uhb-skyoor] Show IPA adjective, -scur·er,-scur·est, verb, -scured, -scur·ing, nounadjective1.(of meaning) not clear or plain; ambiguous, vague, oruncertain: an obscure sentence in the contract.2.not clear to the understanding; hard to perceive: obscuremotivations.3.(of language, style, a speaker, etc.) not expressing themeaning clearly or plainly.4.indistinct to the sight or any other sense; not readily seen,heard, etc.; faint.5.inconspicuous or unnoticeable: the obscure beginnings of agreat movement.

[JohnMc]

I agree, it was very poor stage design. The target was completely hidden, from the shooting position. Our squad swapped the plastic barrel, out for a paper one. We have all run by metal or plastic barrels, and heard a bullet spinning around, looking for an exit.

[remoandiris]

hide

¹   [hahyd] Show IPA verb, hid, hid·den or hid,hid·ing, nounverb (used with object)1.to conceal from sight; prevent from being seen ordiscovered: Where did she hide her jewels?2.to obstruct the view of; cover up: The sun was hidden by theclouds.

ob·scure

   [uhb-skyoor] Show IPA adjective, -scur·er,-scur·est, verb, -scured, -scur·ing, nounadjective1.(of meaning) not clear or plain; ambiguous, vague, oruncertain: an obscure sentence in the contract.2.not clear to the understanding; hard to perceive: obscuremotivations.3.(of language, style, a speaker, etc.) not expressing themeaning clearly or plainly.4.indistinct to the sight or any other sense; not readily seen,heard, etc.; faint.5.inconspicuous or unnoticeable: the obscure beginnings of agreat movement.

From Merriam-Webster.com

Definition of HIDE

transitive verb

3: to screen from or as if from view : obscure

Definition of OBSCURE

transitive verb

2 : to conceal or hide by or as if by covering

[remoandiris]

Around here we use mesh snow fence as soft cover sometimes. It breaks up the target pattern and creates an illusion of difficulty.

That is very interesting. All the clubs I've shot at have used orange snow fence as barricades/walls. I guess as long as the WSB says what is hard cover and what is soft cover it doesn't matter as much what is used.

Edited November 13, 2011 by remoandiris

[Sarge]

Around here we use mesh snow fence as soft cover sometimes. It breaks up the target pattern and creates an illusion of difficulty.

That is very interesting. All the clubs I've shot at have used orange snow fence as barricades/walls. I guess as long as the WSB says what is hard cover and what is soft cover it doesn't matter as much what is used.

Yeah, typically not mixed on the same stage but we also use it as walls.

[DyNo!]

I agree, it was very poor stage design. The target was completely hidden, from the shooting position. Our squad swapped the plastic barrel, out for a paper one. We have all run by metal or plastic barrels, and heard a bullet spinning around, looking for an exit.

Yup - if the intent is merely to obscure the target, I'd choose a variety of items that would cover a target before I picked a plastic barrel.

In addition to safety, my main concern was that two perfectly placed shots could be unscoreable (2 Mike) since a target full of small bullet fragments should be treated like two mikes.

Even if the bullets remained solid, they could still be deflected by the barrel meaning that good marksmanship wouldn't necessarily be scored as better performance.

I don't think it will happen again at the club though given the response of our squad. (Swapping the plastic barrel for a paper one)

[HRider]

I certainly hope this doesn't happen again at our club. I saw deliberately shooting into a plastic barrel as a safety hazard.

Hurley

[Biloxi23]

At the Gator Classic there was a stage that used snow fence as soft cover and barrels as soft cover on two different targets. You had the option of moving forward enough to get a clear shot at the targets around the barrels, or to continue moving laterally and shooting through the barrels to hit the targets. With just my squad I saw it done both ways, some succesful and some not so successful. I think the key was that you were not forced to shoot through the barrels, you had the option to take the risk for a significant time savings. I thought it was a very fun stage. Iwent halfway between teh two options and it turned out like halfway (half a---d) meaures usually do.

[wooddog]

Shooting through barrels is just a bad idea!

[poopshooter]

ive tried to shoot thru a soft cover barrel before, it didnt work for me. i think its better off taking the tighter shot.

[bikerburgess]

One of the clubs I shoot at localy declares all the barrels as soft cover just to take away some scoring issues (the barrels are all old and shot up so it's nearly imposible to tell if you had a full diamiter hit on the barrel or just a partial) but nobody shoots through the barrels on purpose

Mike

[downtime]

I learned the hard way about shooting through plastic barrells this past weekend. I had 10 mikes in one stage trying to be quick and shoot through them rather than taking the tighter shot

[scarecrow]

Regardless of rule, it is very poor stage design. Barrels, metal and plastic, will deflect bullets. This alone alters the challenge based on the placement of the bullet through a no-scoring piece of material.

As for the rule, by definiiton, if you can tell the placement due to part of the target visibly sticking out, I would have a hard time saying that it was illegal by rule.

I agree. Not sure by your description if the intent was to have you shoot through the barrel to get you hits or if parts of the target was exposed. Dont like shooting thru barrels as you never know if it will make it through or if it would deflect.