Sam Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 it seems like the other guys are shooting so fast as if they aren't using there sights From time to time, somebody tells me that I must be "shooting to fast to actually see" the sights. There are a ton of good discussions about this topic on the forum. I'm glad to see it surface again. The hand is not quicker than the eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) Because I like this subject so much, I'll elaborate. Tricksters and illusionists popularized the phrase that the "hand is quicker than the eye". This is totally FALSE. Seeing is continuous. Think of your eye as a surveillance camera that captures everything. It's your mind that shuts down,not your vision. It believes that it cannot see so fast. The truth is, you can pay attention to the slide, the target, the sights, the brass leaving the ejection port, any thing you want. But, your eye is seeing it all! Your brain may not be processing it, but it is there and your eye is seeing it. Experiment with where your attention goes. Edited November 19, 2011 by Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckaroo45 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I have a Colt Officer's Model Lightweight 45 that has shucked every front sight I've had put on - 4 - by 2 different 'smiths. I tried "point shooting" with elbows locked to sides and two handed from a bit above belly button height at a bug nite shoot. Kept the hits on paper out to about 25'. Beyond that was pretty much nada. Perfect for a dark alley where I shouldn't be anyway. Don't think I'd ask any more out of the gun or method. Biggest issue was trying to reload in the darkish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dravz Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 This match was completely "unseen" and challenging, it can be done. That's awesome!!! Great pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Because I like this subject so much, I'll elaborate. Tricksters and illusionists popularized the phrase that the "hand is quicker than the eye". This is totally FALSE. Seeing is continuous. Think of your eye as a surveillance camera that captures everything. It's your mind that shuts down,not your vision. It believes that it cannot see so fast. The truth is, you can pay attention to the slide, the target, the sights, the brass leaving the ejection port, any thing you want. But, your eye is seeing it all! Your brain may not be processing it, but it is there and your eye is seeing it. Experiment with where your attention goes. Nice. You will see exactly what you believe you can see. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebridge Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ok i have a question... Should I or should I not try this? Its been on my mind. So could some of this be used for practice? OR...close my eyes and use the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ok i have a question... Should I or should I not try this? Its been on my mind. So could some of this be used for practice? OR...close my eyes and use the force. Be the force, Luke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckaroo45 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) My usual carry is a lightweight Colt Officer's Model in 45 ACP. I can't seem to keep a front sight on it as it has stake on sights and they like to escape. I've lost 3 so far so I just gave up trying to use it with sights. Now my practice wth it is draw and fire to 30', two handed, chest height and elbows locked in to my sides. I can keep all shots in the C zone or better. Beyond 30' the hits get iffier(?). I read someplace the FBI said the average? gunfight is something like 3 rounds, 4 seconds at 15'. Your specs may vary. Also recall somebody said the first gun that goes off has a distinct advantage as the other guy will flinch. That means the extra heartbeat to raise to eye level and aim might be good form but also might be what gets you killed. With all that in mind, that missing front sight just might save my life. Should you try it? ABSOLUTELY! Don't bet your life on being able to aim using sights. Edited January 13, 2012 by buckaroo45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I intentionally do not use the sights on my carry gun - I've never seen them. Self defense shooting is a whole different ball game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebridge Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Just to stir it a little i have this friend who..... he teaches index shotgun shooting. He does and he has had me bust a clay from the hip with a slug...its the truth. His words are "we are always right when we point and say -look at that, so index it right, point you finger and pull the trigger". Edited March 2, 2012 by thebridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Just to stir it a little i have this friend who..... he teaches index shotgun shooting. He does and he has had me bust a clay from the hip with a slug...its the truth. His words are "we are always right when we point and say -look at that, so index it right, point you finger and pull the trigger". He isn't wrong. I'm releasing a 7 minute video about it pretty soon for AIM Surplus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleL Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Interesting topic! Usually on trips out to our shooting spot me and my pops get bored shooting paper so we try all kinds of stuff. Like shooting from the hip or a low sight picture. The index thing is a new term to me but I was very surprised at how easy hitting milk jugs at 10 or 15 feet was from the hip. I could be way off base here... Isn't this the skill used by some of the cowboy shooter guys on Topshot?? I mean ripping 6 from a revo at the hip and getting not just acceptable but amazing results has to have some merit to it. Those guys are insane from the hip. I really fail to realize how that skill would be good in a pistol match. But could you imagine??.... A guy dressed like Wyatt Earp burning through a field course.... From the hip!?!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebridge Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) I'd put a quick $50 that Jerry Miculek could do it. Stood and watched him shoot area 6 two years ago, OMG.. Benos- that cat IS the force with a wheel gun, targets put holes in themselves when the dude rubs white powder on his grip Edited March 7, 2012 by thebridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Like I said, he's much maligned on this forum. then come shoot against him, or his wife, or his former lawn boy he taught to shoot (Daniel Horner) who made IDPA master at about age 12. He frequently gets quoted out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebridge Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Can one of you pro advise me if I should do this as practice or not? I have the cmore and mount off my gun for a few days and I could.... I'm thinking blindfolded? -that part is a joke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby hated Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 i've been shooting USPSA for a little over a year and in the last few months i've started to shoot close to mid range targets without seeing a sight picture. i call it index shooting, call it what you want. when i started i was all wrong. i was shooting weaver with a full right hand grip with a semi teacup grip. but i was still able to put 2 bullets in the same hole on occasion. then i learned to shoot proper freestyle and concentrated on shooting everything by the book with proper technique taking a full sight picture on every shot. at first my poor technique resulted in worse shooting than i had done when i started. however over the course of a year of shooting 1-2 matches a week i've improved and become pretty good at hitting on the first shot if i shoot proper form and technique and take a proper sight picture. i regualrly was shooting stages with no penalties and no extra shots, but my times, and scores, were always behind the top guys i shoot with. i could never get over about 25th percentile. then a few months ago i decided to push myself outside of my comfort zone and index shoot everything that i could within say 10 meters. at first my accuracy and scores fell off, but over the past few months i've been getting faster and more accurate index shooting and i just took my first 1st place finish in Limited at a local club match! i couldnt believe it. i would describe the feeling as a state of flow, where you break each shot knowing where it is going to land, without having to take a full sight picture or see the hit to confirm the hit. that way im transitioning from target to target, only taking enough time to break each shot or double tap, before transitioning to the next target, without taking the time to think about whether im hitting or not, or how my sight picture looked on the last shot i broke. i now have the confidence to know where im hitting either indexing or seeing a full or partial sight picture. what i am working on now is improving my mental discipline. because i still have the impulse to confirm my hits and i have to mentally overcome the desire to waste time confirming shots that have already been fired. thats the great thing about this sport. no mattter how much better you get, there's always infinite room for improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 All I know is I lost my front sights in a match and tried to use the slide as a sight and couldn't hit a thing. I need that little thing at the front of the slide or barrel. I have no magic to compensate for the lack there of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whoops! Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Can one of you pro advise me if I should do this as practice or not? I have the cmore and mount off my gun for a few days and I could.... I'm thinking blindfolded? -that part is a joke If you practice it, it will only put you behind where you were when you had the C-more because you will be trying to use a different index point when you get the C-more back on. Index shooting from gun position can be super fast, but it can never finish a full stage as fast as someone index shooting with a front sight or a red dot. Referencing the self-defense aspect, there is a very famous person who lived through an amazing number of gun fights. I wish I could remember his name. Anyway, he said he wasn't particularly fast, he just took the time to aim while the other guy missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Can one of you pro advise me if I should do this as practice or not? I have the cmore and mount off my gun for a few days and I could.... I'm thinking blindfolded? -that part is a joke If you don't have a good a really index, then it won't do you much good. Do you ever hunt for the dot, or could you present the gun with your eyes closed and have the gun/dot be on target? The foundation here is the index. If you don't have a rock solid index, then do the work to get one. (Read about INDEX under Fundamentals & Technique) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 shooting without sights is only for short range stuff, it really isnt no sights, sights, its about index. If you index the gun correctly the sights are gonna line up with the target. Sights give good feed back in dry fire that your index is correct. Hard to get a really good index without first training with the sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaTact Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) Some comments then some questions related to the OP Correct me if I'm wrong but at close distances focusing on the target amounts to either a Type I or type II focus that's mentioned in the BE book. You definitely need a strong index to make this work. If you do your sights should be in your field of view-- they'll be a little out of focus but that's the overall picture. For me it seems to work consistently up to 7 yards, and 10 is pushing it a little. One question-- What exact part of the rarget are people focused on? When target focused shooting I can't help but see the bullet holes as they appear. Hopefully they're in the A zone but if not ... Does anyone use the bullet holes as another source of feedback during the COF or do you ignore them? I'm not aware if this is helping or hurting me. Edited March 11, 2012 by SeaTact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I want to call my shot before the hole appears in the target. I want to KNOW where the bullet is going to hit. I can know this as I am shooting...and not have to wait for the hole to give me that information. I get that from reading the gun...as I work the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I want to call my shot before the hole appears in the target. I want to KNOW where the bullet is going to hit. I can know this as I am shooting...and not have to wait for the hole to give me that information. I get that from reading the gun...as I work the trigger. I cannot add to that. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leas327 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 You will be much farther ahead to take Flex's advice and build your index and call your shots in this game. If you want to read some interesting stuff on index or point shooting a pistol read Ed McGivern's book. Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. McGivern was way ahead of his time when it came to calling shots and percieved point shooting. Long story short, it takes a tremendous amount of practice and work to develop the skill to be able to reliably get hits not using the sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 You will be much farther ahead to take Flex's advice and build your index and call your shots in this game. If you want to read some interesting stuff on index or point shooting a pistol read Ed McGivern's book. Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. McGivern was way ahead of his time when it came to calling shots and percieved point shooting. Long story short, it takes a tremendous amount of practice and work to develop the skill to be able to reliably get hits not using the sights. I'd imagine "a tremendous amount of practice and work" extends to using the same exact gun and load, all of the time. ANYTHING that changes could easily throw off such a feel-based skill. Heck, a sore tendon on any given day could be a problem at the level of shooting he was doing... I'll bet ol' Ed used to curse up and down when he had to repair a part that in any way effected his grip or trigger pull. "That's at least 5k rounds of work before I'm back to where I was!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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