Open - what caliber

[Sarge]

I have a STI 38SC major for USPSA. Had a 9mm minor top end built for it to shoot steel. Just swap top ends no other adjustment than different mags.

I'm happy, best of both worlds. Can always shoot 9mm minor in USPSA if I want; just got to shoot more A's. I'm not a 9mm major person.

Why different mags?

From what I understand:

9mm will not run in many if not most STI mags without spacers. But will run in SVI mags.

[gng4life]

That usually isn't necessary (mostly dependent on OAL) but if it is, just pull out the spacer - no different mags.

[Sarge]

That usually isn't necessary (mostly dependent on OAL) but if it is, just pull out the spacer - no different mags.

Not all spacers are loose. Some are welded, some are glued, etc. Mine are siliconed in so as not to rattle. We shoot in a lot of gravel in this area and a rattle means something is in the mag that shouldn't be.

[gng4life]

That usually isn't necessary (mostly dependent on OAL) but if it is, just pull out the spacer - no different mags.

Not all spacers are loose. Some are welded, some are glued, etc. Mine are siliconed in so as not to rattle. We shoot in a lot of gravel in this area and a rattle means something is in the mag that shouldn't be.

Go SV, no spacers needed. Either way, that would be expensive and redundant to have glued spacers for one gun and then more mags that hold the same diameter bullet without spacers. I would have removable spacers if I did that.

While on this topic, if the OP decides to go Open, try to get SV mags. They are the best! The next best would be some good tuned STI mags.

[al503]

Glad I am not having to try to find super or super comp brass right now, it seems to be non-existant.

Wow Jaxs you had me concerned!!! But I went from you post directly to Starline Brass..and found Super and Super Comp available and ready to ship. Why the misinformation???? Plenty of brass to be had.

There are many times when starline is out. I has to purchase their TJ for $155+/K a while back because they were out of their SC.

[nipplehead]

Glad I am not having to try to find super or super comp brass right now, it seems to be non-existant.

Wow Jaxs you had me concerned!!! But I went from you post directly to Starline Brass..and found Super and Super Comp available and ready to ship. Why the misinformation???? Plenty of brass to be had.

There are many times when starline is out. I has to purchase their TJ for $155+/K a while back because they were out of their SC.

Yes I have seen them out ...but it only takes 3-4 weeks before they have more...your statements implied cant get it..." nonexistant" simply an untrue statement. Ya best to plan ahead BUT you dont suddenly run out of brass anymore than you run out of powder or bullets.

[Chills1994]

SVI changed their mag tube design to fit their new all metal grip, from what I understand.

Some other shooter recommended to me some mag body out of Spain, I think it was, called "SPS" maybe???

I haven't looked it up on the internet yet, though.

My open gun is in 9mm Major.

I just can't see being forced to or having to bend over or to kneel to pick up .38 Super brass.

by choice, yeah...I would just rather have the option to leave it lay on the range "floor", especially if weather or ground conditions are not conducive to sticking around after a match to whore up brass.

I have at least one bucket of 9mm brass...probably two....then there is a 5 gallon bucket of mixed brass I still have to sort.

[gng4life]

SVI changed their mag tube design to fit their new all metal grip, from what I understand.

Some other shooter recommended to me some mag body out of Spain, I think it was, called "SPS" maybe???

I haven't looked it up on the internet yet, though.

My open gun is in 9mm Major.

I just can't see being forced to or having to bend over or to kneel to pick up .38 Super brass.

by choice, yeah...I would just rather have the option to leave it lay on the range "floor", especially if weather or ground conditions are not conducive to sticking around after a match to whore up brass.

I have at least one bucket of 9mm brass...probably two....then there is a 5 gallon bucket of mixed brass I still have to sort.

That's correct but there are some older styles still floating around here. Also, some gunsmith can get the newer ones to work, just takes quite a bit of work. Also, I have not had a good experience with SPS, just beware. I'm still working on one now that is killing me but my older SVs are awesome!

[al503]

Glad I am not having to try to find super or super comp brass right now, it seems to be non-existant.

Wow Jaxs you had me concerned!!! But I went from you post directly to Starline Brass..and found Super and Super Comp available and ready to ship. Why the misinformation???? Plenty of brass to be had.

There are many times when starline is out. I has to purchase their TJ for $155+/K a while back because they were out of their SC.

Yes I have seen them out ...but it only takes 3-4 weeks before they have more...your statements implied cant get it..." nonexistant" simply an untrue statement. Ya best to plan ahead BUT you dont suddenly run out of brass anymore than you run out of powder or bullets.

You're confused. Wasn't me, mang. But, you're absolutely right. You just don't run out of brass (unless you just purchased the pistol like I did.)

Edited November 8, 2011 by al503

[XRe]

There are many times when starline is out. I has to purchase their TJ for $155+/K a while back because they were out of their SC.

"Out" or "backordered" does not mean completely unavailable - it means it'll be available in about two weeks. The website usually shows an expected availability date of 1-2 months - but every time I've ordered from them, I get the brass within two weeks. This has been discussed several times on the forum...

[XRe]

9 can shoot just as flat as 38 super. I think its a little more simple than it seams, if you want flat straight back recoil you will probably benefit from a big comp and poppleholes lots of a powder like 105 then 38 super is the way to go. If you don't mind a little flip up and down recoil then 9 major is fine.

You realize that you just contradicted yourself, right? And, you stated the truth after- 9mm Major cannot be made to shoot as flat as .38SC/Super. "Flat", as we talk about it in terms of how the gun moves, means "lack of apparent up and down movement to the shooter". "Flip" is the opposite of "flat".

By way of example - Jake Di Vita shoots a 9mm Major race gun. I shoot a .38 Supercomp race gun. We got together this summer before the Double Tap to do a little shooting. Both of our guns look similar in movement to the bystanders watching us shoot (that is, they both appear to be flat). However, after shooting my gun, Jake says "Holy shit, that gun shoots flat". It's also an order of magnitude louder than his. The point is - what people looking at your gun move think about how it looks says nothing about how it's moving from the perspective of the shooter. "Flat" or "flippy" can only be judged from the perspective of the shooter. The bystander is actually reacting primarily to your shooting platform and recoil control - the gun actually moves more quickly than they can fully see. It's an illusion that the gun appears to be flat to them.

Having a gun shoot "flat" is not important for the reasons you think - most people think it has to do with a quicker followup on the target. More important for that is consistency of movement, so that the gun can be timed. Where flat comes in handy is in shot calling. A gun that appears to shoot flat is actually a gun that is staying more stable through the early part of the recoil cycle, not one that is literally staying flatter through the whole thing (high speed video clearly shows that all of them actually come off line a good deal, regardless of caliber or load selection). The action of the comp and ports keep the muzzle down on line longer and prevent the dot from moving away from the POA as quickly, leading to a "deeper" impression of the dot on the retina at that point - and thus a more emphatic and accurate shot call, especially in bright sunny conditions.

[XRe]

I shoot 38 Super because I like the larger rim, for more positive extraction. I don't mind looking for my brass, or buying some new brass once in a while.

You know, at this point, I'm not sure I really believe there's much advantage to Super or Supercomp in terms of extraction vs. feed reliability. (knock on wood) I've not ever had an extraction issue with rimless Super brass of any flavor (that's over 15 or so years of shooting Supercomp). And, since the advent of better followers and springs, I've not seen anyone have any chronic feed problems with Super, either.

I think the tradeoff is case capacity/strength, and very minorly mag capacity (which isn't actually a real issue, to me, either). The Super will hold more powder. The Supercomp case will last a little longer (though that's relative, since you'd probably lose either one before you wear it out).

And before anybody says anything about the mag capacity of 38 Super .... I'm getting a very, VERY reliable 29+1 in a couple of SV tubes I tuned & polished myself!

Yeah, but I've got one that's very reliable that holds 30 ;-) Of course, one round doesn't mean jack, but... All of my mags run Supercomp or Super just fine - but I definitely lose a round when loading up Super brass... You could probably fit 30 in your tubes if you were running Supercomp...

So I'm not giving up anything to 38SC or 9 major except maybe the price of the brass. And picking it up. I don't mind.

I'm pretty well convinced that the argument for 9 Major primarily stems from laziness Or a way oversized midsection Otherwise, there's truly no advantage that anyone's every convinced me of for USPSA competition... 3 Gun scored under IMG is another story (of course, there you're running minor ammo, as well).

[AWLAZS]

I decided to shoot 9 because its hard to pick my brass out of the snow. I clean up what I can but the snow gets deep.

During the summer I pick it up and re use it.

What I do is practice with the same brass all summer. I then shoot that brass up at club matches in the winter. I don't go through 9mm brass any faster then I did super.

[Guma]

I read a few more topics on this discussion, along with all the info in this thread. I have read where some people make a choice between the two because of their inexperience with reloading. I have never reloaded pistol ammo before. I understand there is now a lot more info on reloading 9mm Major than in years past, but being new to reloading pistol, I would feel more comfortable loading 38 super than I would 9mm Major. Not that it is any easier to load one over the other but dealing with the high pressures of 9mm Major can be a bit intimidating to a reloading rookie. Guess it is a case of better safe than sorry. Is that sound reasoning?

For me, picking up or not picking up brass is not a major factor in the decision. I consider picking up brass part of the routine of shooting anyway.

[Steve L]

9 can shoot just as flat as 38 super. I think its a little more simple than it seams, if you want flat straight back recoil you will probably benefit from a big comp and poppleholes lots of a powder like 105 then 38 super is the way to go. If you don't mind a little flip up and down recoil then 9 major is fine.

You realize that you just contradicted yourself, right? And, you stated the truth after- 9mm Major cannot be made to shoot as flat as .38SC/Super. "Flat", as we talk about it in terms of how the gun moves, means "lack of apparent up and down movement to the shooter". "Flip" is the opposite of "flat".

By way of example - Jake Di Vita shoots a 9mm Major race gun. I shoot a .38 Supercomp race gun. We got together this summer before the Double Tap to do a little shooting. Both of our guns look similar in movement to the bystanders watching us shoot (that is, they both appear to be flat). However, after shooting my gun, Jake says "Holy shit, that gun shoots flat". It's also an order of magnitude louder than his. The point is - what people looking at your gun move think about how it looks says nothing about how it's moving from the perspective of the shooter. "Flat" or "flippy" can only be judged from the perspective of the shooter. The bystander is actually reacting primarily to your shooting platform and recoil control - the gun actually moves more quickly than they can fully see. It's an illusion that the gun appears to be flat to them.

Having a gun shoot "flat" is not important for the reasons you think - most people think it has to do with a quicker followup on the target. More important for that is consistency of movement, so that the gun can be timed. Where flat comes in handy is in shot calling. A gun that appears to shoot flat is actually a gun that is staying more stable through the early part of the recoil cycle, not one that is literally staying flatter through the whole thing (high speed video clearly shows that all of them actually come off line a good deal, regardless of caliber or load selection). The action of the comp and ports keep the muzzle down on line longer and prevent the dot from moving away from the POA as quickly, leading to a "deeper" impression of the dot on the retina at that point - and thus a more emphatic and accurate shot call, especially in bright sunny conditions.

Dave, of course you are absolutely correct. My 9 is not as flat as some 38 supers I have shot. I have never shot an open gun that was "flat as a board". I meant my statement from the spectator standpoint. My gun flips, I don't care because it flips consistent and dot tracks perfectly, to me. I have a shorty that is snappy but shoots quicker follow up shots but the full size gun I shoot better. I also would not have thought I shot the shorty faster if it weren't for the timer telling me so. I like a little flip in any gun since I shoot irons more often and they flip. I had people tell me my glock 35 does not move when shot, yet I know full well it is moving. Like you said recoil control is what others are seeing. My statement on 9 can shoot as flat as 38 super was definitely the wrong terminology, but with the right powder, comp, slide weight, bullet etc. 9 can shoot less flippy then some 38 supers (trying not to use the term flat). I tested 2 powders in 9 major 7625, and autocomp. in 38 super I tested way more and no powder gave me the results I read about. That is when I decided consistent straight up and down dot movement was more beneficial. I think a big problem with getting into Open is there is too much variation in everything, personal perception and spectator perception, to decide where to begin. Of course as you mentioned recoil control is a big thing, whats comfortable to me may be violent to the next guy. Which brings me to my next point for the OP, 38 super is easier to start out as a new reloader their are more powders more case capacity to load well within reasonable pressure limits. Also the powders can alter the feel of the gun to make it react the way you want as long as you don't mind trying various powders to find the right one for you. Once again I am contradicting myself saying I tried different powders and didn't find it useful. However there was a difference with each powder I tried, just not enough of a difference for me to care, and of course that also was associated with my particular gun set up.

[Chills1994]

Dave Re wrote:

I'm pretty well convinced that the argument for 9 Major primarily stems from laziness Or a way oversized midsection

You're damn skippy I am lazy and I do have an oversized midsection.

I'm also overflowing in 9mm brass and bullets, already have the 650 set up for 9mm, and as match director I already spend enough dang time at "my" range on match day as it is to want to spend another half hour bent over or on my knees picking up brass. There are times when I just want to get the heck off the bays, go eat, and then go home. Or go start punching in scores into EZWin.

Out of all the years I have been doing this, the amount of .38 Super brass I have picked up might.....might fill a soup can.

I want to brass whore on my own terms....because I can....not because I have to.

[Whoops!]

As others have said, 38 super rimless (aka supercomp) is the best choice for open right now.

Load flexibility, more room to reduce peak pressure thereby allowing less stress on brass and barrel chamber, and universal appeal of saying, "My gun shoots .38 super, it's a much more powerful 9mm." are some of the main reasons.

In response to another conversation going on here; as a spectator, I can see an open gun flip regardless of who's shooting it. They do all flip, but some flip less and quicker than others. I believe the main reason for this is powder selection, even more so than comp design. I relate seeing a guns actual muzzle flip to seeing a bullet traveling down range. If you can do one, you can probably do the other. You just have to be very picky about what you're looking for.

[al503]

There are many times when starline is out. I has to purchase their TJ for $155+/K a while back because they were out of their SC.

"Out" or "backordered" does not mean completely unavailable - it means it'll be available in about two weeks. The website usually shows an expected availability date of 1-2 months - but every time I've ordered from them, I get the brass within two weeks. This has been discussed several times on the forum...

Dave, you're confusing me with someone else also. I never said anything about completely unavailable. I said that there are many times when they are out of brass. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess you can read into that (and already have) what you will.

[Chris Keen]

Does SuperComp require different dies to load? Other than extractor tuning, can I run 38 SuperComp in my 38 Super barrel/chamber?

[shred]

Does SuperComp require different dies to load? Other than extractor tuning, can I run 38 SuperComp in my 38 Super barrel/chamber?

Same dies and all. Using a .223 shellplate is better and it also keeps the rimmed Supers and 9x19's out.

I laugh about 'flatness' because spectators are always telling me my Modified gun shoots flat.

This is the same gun Phil Strader likened to shooting a Scandium .44 Mag snubby.

As for the Great Caliber Debate, it's tough to argue that Super & rimless variants aren't the best money-no-object option. Each person can decide how much that matters depending on their own situation.

[Steve L]

Does SuperComp require different dies to load? Other than extractor tuning, can I run 38 SuperComp in my 38 Super barrel/chamber?

Same dies but different shell plates. I used .223 like already mentioned and bought the 38 supercomp caseloader feed plate adapter from dillon.

[lcs]

Does SuperComp require different dies to load? Other than extractor tuning, can I run 38 SuperComp in my 38 Super barrel/chamber?

Same dies (If you want to exclude 38 super, use 223 shell plate) You may not need to tune the extractor. Mark runs either in his gun. For 38SC I bought a new Aftec and dropped it in and no tuning. Yes to same chamber.

[Chris Keen]

So if I wanted to switch to Super Comp, all I'd need to change is the shell-plate on my 650 (to .223), and I could use the same dies, same case feeder plate, same powder, same bullets, same mags? (currently using old style SV mags). Do I need to modify the feed lips of the mags at all?

[BlueOvalBruin]

So if I wanted to switch to Super Comp, all I'd need to change is the shell-plate on my 650 (to .223), and I could use the same dies, same case feeder plate, same powder, same bullets, same mags? (currently using old style SV mags). Do I need to modify the feed lips of the mags at all?

Yes to the dies, shell plate change, case feeder plate, and bullets. The case capacity is a little less in 38SC so you’ll need a little less powder. I can’t say for sure regarding the mags but I’ve never heard of mags tuned specially for 38 super so you should be good to go with what you have.

[lcs]

So if I wanted to switch to Super Comp, all I'd need to change is the shell-plate on my 650 (to .223), and I could use the same dies, same case feeder plate, same powder, same bullets, same mags? (currently using old style SV mags). Do I need to modify the feed lips of the mags at all?

Your good to go on your current setup----Except your extractor may need tuning or a new AFTEC 9/38SC would be in needed. I have put two "out-of-package" in both of my open guns and they are still running 100%.

Isn't 38SC brass less expensive also.

Your welcome to try your mag and some of my 38sc loads in your gun. Same powder, but 124gn bullets.

Edited November 8, 2011 by lcs