SVI4ME Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 A question came up today and I would like clarification. We were shooting a standards stage today. It had two strings, one from 20 yards and one from 15 or so yards. First string was 3 targets with two shot each freestyle and reload and 6 shot strong hand. Move up and shoot 6 shots freestyle and reload and 6 shot weakhand. After string one I thought I might have shanked one. As I was walking up to the starting position for string two and I could not see all my hits so I walked half way to the targets (12 yards) and took a look and noticed that I shanked two. Went back to the starting point and got ready to shoot. Someone in the peanut gallery said I was cheeting by looking at my hits. Any rules covering this? I was still 12 or so yards fromt he targets..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 If it's Virginia count, any "cheating" is automatically penalized. If it's Comstock, the dipwads in the peanut gallery can fully expect me to take appropriate make up shots and "cheat" any other way I can find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 I know of no rule that can be applied to this situation. This might be why the IPSC (not USPSA) rules specify scoring between strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 So was it Virgina or Comstock ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 How does it matter if it was Virginia or Comstock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 How does it matter if it was Virginia or Comstock? Comstock, if I know I'm points down, I'll simply shoot extra shots on a subsequent string to make up the points. I do the same thing on a stupid "hose this array then make a mandatory reload and hose it again" stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 If I know I've got a mike, I'll try to make it up on a subsequent string..... 10 point penalties are so much nicer when you have full value on the target faces... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 How does it matter if it was Virginia or Comstock? I guess it really doesn't. I'd say peeking was cheating Virgina Mike will cost you -15, right ? Extra shot is -10 but if you get an A, +5 so you are only down 5 right? Comstock still down 15 but no penalty for extra shot, just time, but on a subsequent string, it would be a 0.25 sec for extra shot or so. My Q was in regards to his peeking. On a Virgina Count stage, if you KNOW you have a mike, take the extra shot and get the A next string and only be 5 down, but if you THINK you have a mike, are you willing to take a chance that it was a D and you can't see for sure? Peeking would give you the answer and be cheating. I guess the solution would be the ability to call your shots huh ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 "I know of no rule that can be applied to this situation. This might be why the IPSC (not USPSA) rules specify scoring between strings." Erik, which IPSC rule is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Hey Guys, this is a bit of an irrelevant discussion. Standards can only be scored as VC or FT, no Comstock (6.1.2). I have to say I would personally like the opportunity to create a Comstock Standard Excercise but that's another story. While I understand the desire for expediency I think this topic proves the correctness of scoring between strings (IPSC 6.1.1, USPSA 6.1.1 is different). In the examples given the miss could be strong or weak hand only but the top up shot on a subsequent string is mostly going to be with both hands. It is contrary to the challenge of strong or weak only. Also consider a couple of pulled shots that miss a target and hit a penalty target instead. On a 6 shot string the result would be a minus but we don't permit minus scores. If you don't score and patch between strings there is no positive way of knowing and so the negative score then inflicts itself on another string, either a previous or later one. After a huge amount of discussion the committee decided that the best and fairest way forward was to insist on scoring each string separately. Now all I've got to do is to pursuade Vince to let me have single string Standards and an option for Comstock scoring. Boy, did I lose that one! (but I forgive him) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Hey Neil, Hell, you and the rest of the Brits beat me up so badly on the "broken gun during a string" rule, that I've still got the impression of a Union Jack in the shape of a "bovver boy" boot on my ass. The least you can do is give up on the idea of Comstock Standards Jokes aside, Neil is perfectly correct why IPSC rules require that scoring be completed after each string. Competitors are not supposed to make-up shots in a subsequent string, because each string is considered to be a separate encounter, so the "threat" from String 1 is no longer available when you shoot String 2, and so on. Peeking at targets? Well I wouldn't go as far as calling that cheating, unless the competitor is a repeat offender, but I would certainly call it unsafe, and the RO definitely needs to keep better control of his range. What happens if somebody walks downrange to peek at his targets and Joe Bloggs down the common firing line draws his gun to check something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 USPSA feels that it is okay to look at your targets between strings in order to make up shots. There was precedent set at the 2002 Nationals to this effect. There was a MAJOR discussion here on the subject, I'll see if I can find it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Peeking is not against the rules, and certainly is not cheating. I can look at targets on a stage any time I want. Having strings allows me to do so "off the clock". Comstock or Virginia matters not...make-up shots are available in each...the shooter just needs to decide if they are worth the effort. Under the current (14th, 2001) rules...I don't think there is anything that would prevent the "peeking". In the new rules...US 8.3.1.1 might (likely) apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slughammer Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 I don't see how we all have time to stand around while you walk forward to 12 yards in order to turn around and come back and shoot more strings. Can we all take a little extra time to do that? How about on a 50 yard stage? Hold it fellas, I'll be back it 2 minutes... Proceed to the next position until you're done. If you can see your shots from where you are or where you are going, by all means please look. If you've gotten lost on the way from box A to box B, I'll have check you for a head injury and to lead you back to the shooting box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Hi guys, Repeat after me: "There is no Comstock scoring in Standard Exercises". And while I realise that making-up a miss will give you a better score for the stage, this goes totally against the grain and concept of Standard Exercises (separate encounters, limited number of rounds). In fact, the best way to think about strings is that they're a "Mini-Stage within a Stage". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 "There is no Comstock scoring in Standard Exercises". At the risk of provoking the wrath of Vince Pinto, CM 99-62 Bang and Clang specifies comstock scoring. This may just be a USPSA thing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 WRATH ..... THUNDERBOLTS ..... A PLAGUE OF LOCUSTS .... Actually, my dear Short Round, CM 99-62 is a regular Classifer, not a Standard Exercise. I'll call off the bad weather and insects now PS: CM 99-01, CM 99-04, CM 99-32 etc. are examples of Standard Exercises used as Classifiers (i.e. those with the word "Standards" in the title). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Whoa....he told you. So I guess the proper description of "bang and clang" would be a (very)short course. While we are at it, how 'bout a cut and dry definition for "standard exercise". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 While we are at it, how 'bout a cut and dry definition for "standard exercise". Your wish is my command (wiggling nose): 1.2.2.1 “Standard Exercises” must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified). 6.1.2 Standard Exercise – A course of fire consisting of more than one separately timed component strings. Scores, with any penalties deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to produce the final stage results. Standard Exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. The course of fire for each component string may require a specific shooting position, procedure and/or one or more mandatory reloads. Only one Standard Exercise of a maximum of 24 rounds is allowed in IPSC sanctioned Level IV or higher matches. and while we're at it: 1.2.2.3 "Classifiers" – Courses of fire published by a Regional Directorate and/or IPSC, which are available to competitors seeking a regional and/or international classification. Classifiers must be set-up in accordance with these rules and be conducted strictly in accordance with the notes and diagrams accompanying them. Results must be submitted to the publishing entity in the format required (with the applicable fees, if any), in order for them to be recognized. 6.1.1 String – A separately timed and scored component of a Standard Exercise. Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of each string, and results achieved in each string are then tallied to produce a final stage result (also see Rule 9.5.5). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Ok, Let us look at the question. Peeking between strings in a standards type of COF. I fire 12 rounds at say 25 yards with a 38 Super and then move forward to 15 yards, but step a few extra steps to see if I have all my hits. OR I fire the same 12 rounds with a 45, I can see the hits and lookie there I missed one, so I'll make it up on this string. Difference? In the first situation, some want to penalize me in addition to the Extra Shot Penalty and time I am taking, but in the second they congratulate me on my keen sense of eyesight, my fantastic ability to call my shots and the coolness with which I put it all together and made the split second decision to fire again. Yup, seems fair to me. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 If you patch and score targets after each string, the inequity totally disappears, because you only get awarded the hits you actually earned during the subject string (not those achieved later with "unsportsmanlike" make-up shots). And I'm absolutely delighted that you prefer the original IPSC rule over the USPSA amendment. Where's my shotgun? I gotta go get me some flying pigs ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVI4ME Posted May 25, 2004 Author Share Posted May 25, 2004 OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHH So of you ( Vince and Slughammer) want to curse me for taking 4 steps towards the target to try and see my mini 9mm holes on the last stage of the day with MANY tape patches. I'm gonna gonna gonnaaaa I feel ok with what I did. So there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I have to say that I'm somewhat surprised that some of you think it's acceptable to correct an earlier miss that was likely to have been as a result of a more difficult shot. Theoretically you could be correcting a miss that occurred at 15 yards, weak hand only, with an extra shot with both hands at 10 yards. Sorry Guys, I really think this is unfair and plain wrong. While the IPSC sytem of scoring and patching between strings is a little slower at least the result of the shooting challenge truly represents what the competitor actually shot and as Vince points out conforms to the principle of separate encounters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The obvious solution for USPSA competitors is to whip out the binoculars between strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The obvious solution for USPSA competitors is to whip out the binoculars between strings. ..unless the targets are bagged.. I can just see scoring & taping after each string on the Area 4 50-yard standards. We'd be there all week and the RO's would have walked approximately forty-two miles (300 yards/shooter * 250 shooters / 1760 yards/mile) ~67 KM for you metric folks. I can see the RO's jumping at the chance.. NOT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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