ima45dv8 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 This isn't just something taught in new RO classes; as if in a vacuum. A point to consider is that DNROI (along with the Board of Directors, in most cases) has the ability to issue Rulings, and Clarifications. Rulings (published in the appropriate section of USPSA.org) are used to plug actual holes found in a rule. Clarifications (published in Front Sight) are to simply remove misunderstanding regarding rules that are otherwise solid. I don't agree with all of the Rulings or Clarifications I've seen published (the 3-belt loop rule comes quickly to mind), but they are still "the law of the land". Like it or not, the exchange I posted above is an exact representation of a Clarification published in the issue noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 And where in there does it say ammo in boxes is ok? 10.5.12 deals with disqualifying a competitor -- so it would really have to state that handling boxed ammo is not o.k...... Can you find me where it says that it's o.k. to dq a competitor for handling a box of ammo? This is where I wanted it to go. No, I can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 This isn't just something taught in new RO classes; as if in a vacuum. A point to consider is that DNROI (along with the Board of Directors, in most cases) has the ability to issue Rulings, and Clarifications. Rulings (published in the appropriate section of USPSA.org) are used to plug actual holes found in a rule. Clarifications (published in Front Sight) are to simply remove misunderstanding regarding rules that are otherwise solid. I don't agree with all of the Rulings or Clarifications I've seen published (the 3-belt loop rule comes quickly to mind), but they are still "the law of the land". Like it or not, the exchange I posted above is an exact representation of a Clarification published in the issue noted. The issue noted in the Clairifications you pointed out has nothing to do with ammo in boxes, IMO. Safety Area DQ Details If I walk to the safety area, bag my gun and take off my belt, which has loaded mags on it, am I now "handling ammo" in a safety area, subject to DQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 And where in there does it say ammo in boxes is ok? 10.5.12 deals with disqualifying a competitor -- so it would really have to state that handling boxed ammo is not o.k...... Can you find me where it says that it's o.k. to dq a competitor for handling a box of ammo? This is where I wanted it to go. No, I can't. Huh? What does that reply mean? Are you now saying you don't think someone could be DQ'd for handling a box of ammo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 And where in there does it say ammo in boxes is ok? 10.5.12 deals with disqualifying a competitor -- so it would really have to state that handling boxed ammo is not o.k...... Can you find me where it says that it's o.k. to dq a competitor for handling a box of ammo? This is where I wanted it to go. No, I can't. I figured you were heading somewhere...... I wasn't quite sure where, but wanted to make sure you got there..... I used to be a Boy Scout..... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 And where in there does it say ammo in boxes is ok? 10.5.12 deals with disqualifying a competitor -- so it would really have to state that handling boxed ammo is not o.k...... Can you find me where it says that it's o.k. to dq a competitor for handling a box of ammo? This is where I wanted it to go. No, I can't. Huh? What does that reply mean? Are you now saying you don't think someone could be DQ'd for handling a box of ammo? No, it's just a lot easier to argue that side. If you go back to the day this started, I did say I was bored... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Aw c'mon now! If you think it's so easy you try it for a spell! Besides, aztecdriver's ARB was pretty damn good! ...then there's that pesky little "any circumstances" thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 So where do you you reload your mags or do you carry 300 rounds on your belt. Under USPSA rules you reload your mags anywhere exept the "Safe Area". Or maybe I don't fully understand, what prompted this question? It comes from the point that the safety area should be where you handle your weapon and load your mags. Having people performing these functions elsewhere only increases the possibility of accidents. I can see it now. People sitting in the stands performing said activities instead of an area set aside for such activities. Doesn't make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 It comes from the point that the safety area should be where you handle your weapon and load your mags. Having people performing these functions elsewhere only increases the possibility of accidents. I can see it now. People sitting in the stands performing said activities instead of an area set aside for such activities. Doesn't make sense to me. The idea behind the safety area is to separate activities of ammunition handling and weapon handling. If you can't handle the weapon ANYWHERE except a safety area and you can't handle ammunition IN a safety area - it's impossible to have a loaded weapon except under the direct supervision of an RO after being told to make ready. If you can handle ammuntion and a gun in the safety area - the chances of having a loaded firearm goes up dramatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Aw c'mon now! If you think it's so easy you try it for a spell! Besides, aztecdriver's ARB was pretty damn good! ...then there's that pesky little "any circumstances" thing... Must be something about arguing with GA/NJ... It also happens to be this GA boy is sitting in Paramus, NJ right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.roberts Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 It comes from the point that the safety area should be where you handle your weapon and load your mags. Having people performing these functions elsewhere only increases the possibility of accidents. I can see it now. People sitting in the stands performing said activities instead of an area set aside for such activities. Doesn't make sense to me. The idea behind the safety area is to separate activities of ammunition handling and weapon handling. If you can't handle the weapon ANYWHERE except a safety area and you can't handle ammunition IN a safety area - it's impossible to have a loaded weapon except under the direct supervision of an RO after being told to make ready. If you can handle ammuntion and a gun in the safety area - the chances of having a loaded firearm goes up dramatically. Well said, aztec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 It comes from the point that the safety area should be where you handle your weapon and load your mags. Having people performing these functions elsewhere only increases the possibility of accidents. ... ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 (edited) So where do you you reload your mags or do you carry 300 rounds on your belt. Under USPSA rules you reload your mags anywhere exept the "Safe Area". Or maybe I don't fully understand, what prompted this question? It comes from the point that the safety area should be where you handle your weapon and load your mags. Having people performing these functions elsewhere only increases the possibility of accidents. I can see it now. People sitting in the stands performing said activities instead of an area set aside for such activities. Doesn't make sense to me. Quite the opposite. As people have said---if you handle your firearm in one place (only, unless under the direct of a RO), and load magazines elsewhere (unless under the direct of a RO) then you won't be working with loaded magazines AND a firearm at the same time. If you never (unless under the direction of a RO) work with both at the same time, then you won't accidentally put a loaded mag into a firearm, and touch one off. I fail to see how separating these two actions is somehow less safe than allowing them to occur in the same spot. How does this "increase the possibility of accidents?" Edited to add: I also don't understand what benefit there would be to having a special place set aside to load magazines. Why would this be necessary? Edited November 4, 2011 by Thomas H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 So where do you you reload your mags or do you carry 300 rounds on your belt. Under USPSA rules you reload your mags anywhere exept the "Safe Area". Or maybe I don't fully understand, what prompted this question? It comes from the point that the safety area should be where you handle your weapon and load your mags. Having people performing these functions elsewhere only increases the possibility of accidents. I can see it now. People sitting in the stands performing said activities instead of an area set aside for such activities. Doesn't make sense to me. Huh? So you'd like people to be able to handle gun and ammo, together and unsupervised, at a match? I don't think so.... Gunhandling -- either in the safety area, at the safety table, or under RO supervision. That's it. Ammo handling -- anywhere other than the safe table/safety area. We don't care if you load magazines in the stands -- though we usually don't have stands. We do care to ensure that the two -- ammo and guns -- only come together in one place, and that that takes place under RO supervision..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Just make double damn sure a "safe Area" sign has not been posted on one of the tables! Amen. Twice at the Nationals I walked over to bag in a nearby Safe Area and found someone (two different ones) shucking ammo out of magazines into ammo boxes. Both times I gently asked, "WTF ARE YOU DOING???" Each one snapped their head up and swiveled around until they noticed the sign. If you see a table...look for the sign. A long time ago at a Nationals, I was done shooting for the day and had taken off my rig, and put on a yellow NROI cap. I was walking around and saw 3 people over in the safe area loading magazines. I walked over to them. "Hi!", I said brightly. They looked at me, looked at the hat, looked at what they had in their hands, and weakly replied "Hi....?" "How're you!?", I continued in an upbeat fashion. ".....fine.......?" "You know, if I were an RO at this match, I could DQ all three of you for loading magazines in the safe area." They then realized it wasn't going to happen. "YOU'RE RIGHT!", they said, threw down their magazines into their bags, grabbed up their stuff, and RAN! Priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 A long time ago at a Nationals, I was done shooting for the day and had taken off my rig, and put on a yellow NROI cap. I was walking around and saw 3 people over in the safe area loading magazines. I walked over to them. "Hi!", I said brightly. They looked at me, looked at the hat, looked at what they had in their hands, and weakly replied "Hi....?" "How're you!?", I continued in an upbeat fashion. ".....fine.......?" "You know, if I were an RO at this match, I could DQ all three of you for loading magazines in the safe area." They then realized it wasn't going to happen. "YOU'RE RIGHT!", they said, threw down their magazines into their bags, grabbed up their stuff, and RAN! Priceless. And then there's me... a few months ago at a local... I was showing another shooter my wonderful new toy in the safe area, and letting him finger bang, and play with it. Anxious to pass my knowledge to him - the question of magazine came up somehow - and I reached down and grabbed one --- pulled it about 6 inches out of the pouch. Then I paused a second and said "Son of a B**** I just DQ'd myself. " Shoved the mag back in the pouch, went to my buddy happily playing with my pistol and said "Damn it, give me that thing!" - back into the holster, went over to the pile and grabbed my scoresheet out scribbled DQ across it... and went about looking for the 10.5.xx which I didn't have memorized was 12 at the time. Everyone was going - what the h*8* are you doing... I DQ'd. Who said something... I did! I should have handled a box of ammo, DQ'd myself, then read the rule, then arb myself. I'd like to take a position on my own arb committee - but that wouldn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Ok, fine I just issued you a Match DQ for handling a box of ammo in the safe area (not saying I would, but stuff happens). What rule are you going to use to file your ARB? <snip> Simple answer. 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 So you folks don't run cold ranges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 So you folks don't run cold ranges? (dftt) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaciLyn Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 So you folks don't run cold ranges? I have a feeling there's somehow been a huge miscommunication. Yes, West Texas Granny, we have cold ranges. By we, I am speaking for several of the ranges here in North Georgia that I have the pleasure of shooting with many of the guys involved in this thread AND (unless I'm going to miserably fail the Level 1 RO Certification exam I have recently taken) any range that holds a USPSA Match, at least during that match. For the sake of conversation, I'd love to hear how the range/ranges you frequent handles gun safety.... Say.... From the time you park the car in the lot till you bag your pistol and head home. Am I correct in assuming that since this is a USPSA Rlues thread, you shoot USPSA? Looking forward to hearing from you :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 So you folks don't run cold ranges? Clearly you do not understand the conversation. So I'll bite - what does running a cold range have to do with loading ammunition in magazines at a safety area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 So you folks don't run cold ranges? Do you even know what a "cold range" is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Say.... From the time you park the car in the lot till you bag your pistol and head home. Am I correct in assuming that since this is a USPSA Rlues thread, you shoot USPSA? Looking forward to hearing from you Actually, you don't need to be unloaded from the time you park your car to the time you head home. The USPSA rules were updated a while ago so that our cold range rules do not interfere with the carry of a defensive sidearm to/from matches: 2.51 If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range (or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact zone.2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 So you folks don't run cold ranges? Clearly you do not understand the conversation. So I'll bite - what does running a cold range have to do with loading ammunition in magazines at a safety area? I'll get back to you at half-time of the LSU vs Alabama game. Thinking LSU in overtime by 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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