Hearing Protection During COF

[ima45dv8]

Man you guys are hard. As being one of those people that shot a course without HP, with an open gun and in a shoot house I would always allow a reshoot when it is obvious that the shooter did not have what he felt was adequate HP.

I don't disagree but it sounds like in this instance it may not have been so obvious to the RO. I truly hope that if this ever happens to Paul again he stops immediately.

[twodownzero]

No reshoot for stopping himself.

I disagree. It's up to the shooter to decide on the level of hearing protection. If an open shooter chooses to avail himself of both plugs and muffs, he's as entitled to stop himself as a shooter who only wears one or the other, if the hearing protection is inadvertently lost....

Hearing matters. I won't differentiate based on layer of protection.....

The fact is that I will be wearing only plugs or muffs, not both, while I'm running him. One or the other is perfectly adequate.

In your opinion... one or the other is adequate. For me it's double. Who is right?

It's a factual determination, not an opinion. Earplugs are enough even for a rifle. You won't damage your ears...there is no rationale for allowing a reshoot.

[aztecdriver]

It's a factual determination, not an opinion. Earplugs are enough even for a rifle. You won't damage your ears...there is no rationale for allowing a reshoot.

Absolutely incorrect, and by a large margin. Ear canals are different, sensitivities are different, existing damage is different. And the rules are different. It is to the SHOOTER to determine, and that's established. Earplugs do not work for me - it must either be custom plugs, properly set or the addition of pro ears. There have been times where I have had noise levels close to damage levels with pro ears.

You do not make the determination of adequate ear protection for the shooter. This is one denied reshoot I'll pony the arb money for...

ETA - this is NOT after I am 20 rounds in. I know after the first 2 rounds if I've got something wrong, and I'm stopping.

Edited October 19, 2011 by aztecdriver

[Nik Habicht]

No reshoot for stopping himself.

I disagree. It's up to the shooter to decide on the level of hearing protection. If an open shooter chooses to avail himself of both plugs and muffs, he's as entitled to stop himself as a shooter who only wears one or the other, if the hearing protection is inadvertently lost....

Hearing matters. I won't differentiate based on layer of protection.....

The fact is that I will be wearing only plugs or muffs, not both, while I'm running him. One or the other is perfectly adequate.

In your opinion... one or the other is adequate. For me it's double. Who is right?

It's a factual determination, not an opinion. Earplugs are enough even for a rifle. You won't damage your ears...there is no rationale for allowing a reshoot.

Tim,

you've completed medical school then? Are an audiologist? Otherwise an expert on hearing, how it's damaged and how hearing loss is best prevented?

Please tell us what your credentials are.....

[ErichF]

I think if this is such an issue, a minimum NRR could be specified in the rules. These are published on every hearing protection device packaging sold in the US. For example, I use "foamies" that have an NRR of 32-33dB. This is more than enough for any shooting event, indoors or out. Typical over-ear muffs and molded plugs have an NRR of 22-23dB. Electronic ones may get upwards of 28dB. Enforcement of the NRR can be problematic, though. It would basically be on the honor system. One problem with foamies is that a lot of folks fail to install them correctly. Another one is that they are a pain to remove and replace on a regular basis unlike over-ear muffs. Also, muffs are easier to enforce on a range. Foamie wearers often get asked repeatedly if they are protected since they aren't obvious (if installed correctly). Issues with muffs are the extra weight, uncomfortable over most types of ball caps, can cause headaches, and can "leak" if wearing glasses with fat arms...plus the fact they fall off easily. For my next match this weekend, I'm sticking to the foamies. Folks will just have to yell at me and tolerate me yelling back at them

In the case of the OP, if the shooter has foamies or plugs in, he's good. Over-ear muffs are nothing more than an accessory in this case, like his hat. If his hat fell off, would you stop his stage? Of course not.

[ErichF]

Tim,

you've completed medical school then? Are an audiologist? Otherwise an expert on hearing, how it's damaged and how hearing loss is best prevented?

Please tell us what your credentials are.....

I won't speak for Tim, but I agree he is right. I spent 11 years working on the flight line in the Air Force as an F-15 and F-16 crew chief. I spent 1000's of hours next to running jet engines, and my hearing after separating from the AF was nearly the same as when I went in. Probably 75% of the time I was on the line around engines running, I only wore foamies. Only time we HAD to double protect was when in the immediate area around an operating jet...although admittedly we often just had the muffs on to keep QA guys from writing us up.

[lcs]

No reshoot for stopping himself.

I disagree. It's up to the shooter to decide on the level of hearing protection. If an open shooter chooses to avail himself of both plugs and muffs, he's as entitled to stop himself as a shooter who only wears one or the other, if the hearing protection is inadvertently lost....

Hearing matters. I won't differentiate based on layer of protection.....

The fact is that I will be wearing only plugs or muffs, not both, while I'm running him. One or the other is perfectly adequate.

In your opinion... one or the other is adequate. For me it's double. Who is right?

Your are Paul or any competitor who chooses dual forms of hearing protection.

I would bet that any RM I have worked with would allow a reshoot if the shooter stopped himself after two or three shots fired on a 24 round COF because he forgot to pull down his ear muffs even though he was wearing earplugs.

Paul "clearly" was using two sets of ear protection and did not engage both, but Paul continued the COF without stopping himself. In this case, "no reshoot" (Paul did not ask for one, but let us pretend he did). Had he stopped himself within two/three rounds ---RESHOOT!

[aztecdriver]

I think if this is such an issue, a minimum NRR could be specified in the rules. These are published on every hearing protection device packaging sold in the US. For example, I use "foamies" that have an NRR of 32-33dB. This is more than enough for any shooting event, indoors or out. Typical over-ear muffs and molded plugs have an NRR of 22-23dB. Electronic ones may get upwards of 28dB. Enforcement of the NRR can be problematic, though. It would basically be on the honor system. One problem with foamies is that a lot of folks fail to install them correctly. Another one is that they are a pain to remove and replace on a regular basis unlike over-ear muffs. Also, muffs are easier to enforce on a range. Foamie wearers often get asked repeatedly if they are protected since they aren't obvious (if installed correctly). Issues with muffs are the extra weight, uncomfortable over most types of ball caps, can cause headaches, and can "leak" if wearing glasses with fat arms...plus the fact they fall off easily. For my next match this weekend, I'm sticking to the foamies. Folks will just have to yell at me and tolerate me yelling back at them

In the case of the OP, if the shooter has foamies or plugs in, he's good. Over-ear muffs are nothing more than an accessory in this case, like his hat. If his hat fell off, would you stop his stage? Of course not.

And if I've determined to adequately protect my hearing I want a 54+ NRR because I've already got a 30% loss at 4K in my left ear? I put my plugs in and muffs on just fail to notice due to my hat they aren't stable, buzzer goes beep and I move out of a seated start and lose the muffs during my first two shots - I stop. You won't give me a reshoot? I lost half of my hearing protection. But because you determine that the foam plug I installed first should be more than enough?

Edited October 19, 2011 by aztecdriver

[lcs]

No reshoot for stopping himself.

I disagree. It's up to the shooter to decide on the level of hearing protection. If an open shooter chooses to avail himself of both plugs and muffs, he's as entitled to stop himself as a shooter who only wears one or the other, if the hearing protection is inadvertently lost....

Hearing matters. I won't differentiate based on layer of protection.....

The fact is that I will be wearing only plugs or muffs, not both, while I'm running him. One or the other is perfectly adequate.

In your opinion... one or the other is adequate. For me it's double. Who is right?

It's a factual determination, not an opinion. Earplugs are enough even for a rifle. You won't damage your ears...there is no rationale for allowing a reshoot.

Can you prove that statement or back it up with facts?

[ErichF]

And if I've determined to adequately protect my hearing I want a 54+ NRR because I've already got a 30% loss at 4K in my left ear? I put my plugs in and muffs on just fail to notice due to my hat they aren't stable, buzzer goes beep and I move out of a seated start and lose the muffs during my first two shots - I stop. You won't give me a reshoot? I lost half of my hearing protection. But because you determine that the foam plug I installed first should be more than enough?

If YOU stop voluntarily, I would. If you kept on, I wouldn't penalize nor stop you for continuing, since you met the minimum requirement.

BTW, NRR is not cumulative. Installing 32 NRR plugs and putting 21 NRR muffs on doesn't equate to 54dB NRR. The Decibel scale is not linear, but exponential.

Q. Can earmuffs and earplugs be used together to provide more noise reduction?

A. Yes. OSHA allows for earplugs to be worn underneath earmuffs. The NRR this will produce is calculated by adding 5 dB to the NRR of whichever protector (the earplug or the earmuff) has the higher NRR. Keep in mind that this is after the necessary reduction factor of 7dB (if using the A weighted scale) has been calculated. For example, if you were using an earplug with a NRR of 32dB with an earmuff with 27dB NRR, your noise reduction calculations would be:

32dB[A] (earplug) 7db (OSHA Safety Factor) = 25 dB

25 dB + 5 dB (for using earmuff and earplug together) = 30 dB

Total corrected NRR = 30 dB

http://www.coopersafety.com/NoiseReduction.aspx

http://www.labsafety.com/refinfo/ezfacts/ezf305.htm

http://www2.cdc.gov/hp-devices/pdfs/calculation.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earplug

Edited October 19, 2011 by ErichF

[aztecdriver]

And if I've determined to adequately protect my hearing I want a 54+ NRR because I've already got a 30% loss at 4K in my left ear? I put my plugs in and muffs on just fail to notice due to my hat they aren't stable, buzzer goes beep and I move out of a seated start and lose the muffs during my first two shots - I stop. You won't give me a reshoot? I lost half of my hearing protection. But because you determine that the foam plug I installed first should be more than enough?

If YOU stop voluntarily, I would. If you kept on, I wouldn't penalize nor stop you for continuing, since you met the minimum requirement.

BTW, NRR is not cumulative. Installing 32 NRR plugs and putting 21 NRR muffs on doesn't equate to 54dB NRR. The Decibel scale is not linear, but exponential.

Q. Can earmuffs and earplugs be used together to provide more noise reduction?

A. Yes. OSHA allows for earplugs to be worn underneath earmuffs. The NRR this will produce is calculated by adding 5 dB to the NRR of whichever protector (the earplug or the earmuff) has the higher NRR. Keep in mind that this is after the necessary reduction factor of 7dB (if using the A weighted scale) has been calculated. For example, if you were using an earplug with a NRR of 32dB with an earmuff with 27dB NRR, your noise reduction calculations would be:

32dB[A] (earplug) 7db (OSHA Safety Factor) = 25 dB

25 dB + 5 dB (for using earmuff and earplug together) = 30 dB

Total corrected NRR = 30 dB

http://www.coopersafety.com/NoiseReduction.aspx

http://www.labsafety.com/refinfo/ezfacts/ezf305.htm

http://www2.cdc.gov/hp-devices/pdfs/calculation.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earplug

Awesome - then we are on the same page... Tim is not, just wanted to make that clear. When ear muffs come off as an RO - it's hard not to stop them immediately because you don't know if they are always doubled or not.

That calculation makes little sense to me as muffs and plugs offer different methods of sound absorption - I would think it would be more variable than 5 db - but, I don't think it detracts from the argument. I still considered it necessary to have the muffs despite the meager increase in protection. Thanks for posting your references though - very useful.

Edited October 19, 2011 by aztecdriver

[Sarge]

now this thread is going somewhere!

[Steven Cline]

I too have seen shooters run their open guns with only plugs. In fact, plugs have adequate noise reduction reduction.

In fact, they often reduce more noise than muffs. Humbly submitted:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/hearing_protection.htm

However, If he only had the plugs in a portion of the way to add a little more to the muffs...

If he shot one or two shots, winced and stopped- a reshoot. His body language tells me the protection is not adequate.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Steven Cline

[Chuck Anderson]

Sure, he can stop himself. The stage will be scored "as shot."

The fact is that I will be wearing only plugs or muffs, not both, while I'm running him. One or the other is perfectly adequate.

Reshoots are for range equipment failures or for situations beyond the shooter's control, not negligence.

If a shooter's shoe comes untied, does he get a reshoot? What about if he drops a magazine that he needs to finish the course of fire? Where do we stop?

I of course mean these questions rhetorically, of course. The rules cannot depend on such things.

The difference is those things are performance related. Drop a magazine, tough, finish the course or go get it. Shoes come off in the Tulsa mud? Shoot barefoot. Eye and ear protection is required for safety. Period. If the shooter stops themselves for protective equipment that was dislodged or not placed, or if the RO does the same it's a reshoot. The word adequate was used to prevent the argument here. It's not up to the RO to determine what level hearing protection needs to be in place. If a shooter starts, and stops with just plugs or just muffs and says he forgot the other, reshoot. I'm a muffs only guy, but I also have ringing in my ear. I really should switch to using both, but I'm too competetive. Rule 1 is safety. If someone needs or wants to wear extra hearing protection it's in our interests to make sure they can. The relatively small number of times this will come up is not worth jeopradizing someone's continued ability to hear. If you've got a shooter that is consistently doing it, say, he always leaves his muffs on his chair shoots the course. If he does well, not a peep. If he blows a couple no-shoots away, or take 15 shots at the 10 yard popper and then all the sudden needs his muffs? Well I'm sure someone will come up with the resolution for that.

[Paul Santiago]

Tim,

you've completed medical school then? Are an audiologist? Otherwise an expert on hearing, how it's damaged and how hearing loss is best prevented?

Please tell us what your credentials are.....

I won't speak for Tim, but I agree he is right. I spent 11 years working on the flight line in the Air Force as an F-15 and F-16 crew chief. I spent 1000's of hours next to running jet engines, and my hearing after separating from the AF was nearly the same as when I went in. Probably 75% of the time I was on the line around engines running, I only wore foamies. Only time we HAD to double protect was when in the immediate area around an operating jet...although admittedly we often just had the muffs on to keep QA guys from writing us up.

I too spent many years on the flight line around jet engines and in helicopters, I want to keep what hearing I have left. Prior to shooting open, molded plugs were fine for me. I don't care what studies say or what numbers are used. I got my open gun 2 months ago and I can tell you when I shoot it with just the plugs, my ears ring. I have enough ringing in my ears; I'll double up.

[Sarge]

Tim,

you've completed medical school then? Are an audiologist? Otherwise an expert on hearing, how it's damaged and how hearing loss is best prevented?

Please tell us what your credentials are.....

I won't speak for Tim, but I agree he is right. I spent 11 years working on the flight line in the Air Force as an F-15 and F-16 crew chief. I spent 1000's of hours next to running jet engines, and my hearing after separating from the AF was nearly the same as when I went in. Probably 75% of the time I was on the line around engines running, I only wore foamies. Only time we HAD to double protect was when in the immediate area around an operating jet...although admittedly we often just had the muffs on to keep QA guys from writing us up.

I too spent many years on the flight line around jet engines and in helicopters, I want to keep what hearing I have left. Prior to shooting open, molded plugs were fine for me. I don't care what studies say or what numbers are used. I got my open gun 2 months ago and I can tell you when I shoot it with just the plugs, my ears ring. I have enough ringing in my ears; I'll double up.

WHAT??? HUH?? I have ringing in my ears as well.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Kevin Sanders

[ihatepickles]

No reshoot for stopping himself.

I disagree. It's up to the shooter to decide on the level of hearing protection. If an open shooter chooses to avail himself of both plugs and muffs, he's as entitled to stop himself as a shooter who only wears one or the other, if the hearing protection is inadvertently lost....

Hearing matters. I won't differentiate based on layer of protection.....

Sure, he can stop himself. The stage will be scored "as shot."

Can you quote a rule that supports this position? I ask, because I can point out a rule that clearly results in a reshoot. I'm not saying your opinion doesn't matter, but your position wouldn't survive arbitration.

[Sarge]

No reshoot for stopping himself.

I disagree. It's up to the shooter to decide on the level of hearing protection. If an open shooter chooses to avail himself of both plugs and muffs, he's as entitled to stop himself as a shooter who only wears one or the other, if the hearing protection is inadvertently lost....

Hearing matters. I won't differentiate based on layer of protection.....

Sure, he can stop himself. The stage will be scored "as shot."

I can point out a rule that clearly results in a reshoot.

If it were that simple we would not be on page 2 already.

[ihatepickles]

If it were that simple we would not be on page 2 already.

Sure, and everyone who disagrees with my position is wrong.

[ihatepickles]

I should add a smiley in there somewhere before people freak out.

Edited October 20, 2011 by ihatepickles

[Sarge]

I should add a smiley in there somewhere before people freak out.

Tell me about it!! My sense of humor is vastly under appreciated on the forums.

OOPS ALMOST FORGOT!!

[ima45dv8]

John (Singlestack) told me my response might have been taken the wrong way vs. what we discussed on the phone. So here it is as concisely as I can manage right now...

As many have already said, my reaction as an RO would be based only on what I saw at that moment.

If the shooter fired a couple of shots, stopped and said, "I didn't have my muffs on over my earplugs!" -- I'd gladly grant a reshoot.

If the shooter fires most or all of the CoF and after a disastrous run says, "I didn't have my muffs on over my earplugs!" -- they probably wouldn't get a reshoot. A competitor would be hard pressed to convince me they made it through 20+ shots fired and only then suddenly realized how loud their gun was.

YMMV.

[remoandiris]

Prior to shooting open, molded plugs were fine for me. I don't care what studies say or what numbers are used. I got my open gun 2 months ago and I can tell you when I shoot it with just the plugs, my ears ring. I have enough ringing in my ears; I'll double up.

+1. I bought molded plugs at Nationals, thinking they would offer better hearing protection than muffs. I was wrong. My muffs, old as they are, offer me better protection than the molded plugs. The foamies I used in the past seem better than the molded plugs I have. I hate having $50 molded plugs not being used. Maybe I'll double up...molded and muffs.

[Poppa Bear]

A key to hearing protection that needs to be brought up is how they function. Plugs stop the noise from entering the ear canal, muffs stop the sound from entering the canal as well as cushioning the bone conduction of the concussion caused by the shot. Doubling up reduces both. If I were shooting an open gun I would think that muffs are a lot better choice than straight plugs, but both would be my preference.

[Rob Boudrie]

We don't give reshoots because the noise makes it difficult to concentrate. We give reshoots because people don't have sufficient hearing protection for their ears. If they shot the entire stage wearing plugs-but-not-muffs, then they apparently thought they had adequate hearing protection---if it was loud and they couldn't concentrate it is not our problem.

Safety is priority #1 in this sport, and that includes ear/eye protection.

The "Reshoot" protection equipment rule was put into place (or at least got my vote) because it is not reasonable to expect a competitor to choose between damage (or risk of damage) to themselves and zeroing the stage. Consider the shooter who is having the match of his life and starts a stage at the nationals without hearing or eye protection, and realizes it. Absent the "reshoot rule", the shooter just might be tempted to finish the stage anyhow, eating the hearing damage or risk of eye injury in pursuit of a match win. This is not acceptable, and is cured by the reshoot rule.

In my opinion, yes, the shooter should get a reshoot. The RO goofed by not starting the shooter with muffs on his head, and again by not stopping the shooter.

Now, for a trickier scenario.

Consider a shooter who always shoots double plugged, and there is enough evidence/witnesses that this point is not subject to dispute. The shooter arrives at the line with only plugs, and the RO is someone not familiar with the shooter. The shooter is given the signal, engages the first target, and then stops himself invoking the rule under discussion, and informs the RO he was not wearing adequate hearing protection. There are no muffs on his head to "prove" he "intended" to double protect. Do you give him a reshoot? If you answer is yes, what if it's a 32 round field course; the shooter has hit a few no-shoots; and he stops himself before the very last target of the stage and asserts the same claim?