Rufus The Bum Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 I hate it when Doctors kill a little girl because of their incompetence. An entire team of Doctors, at the most prestigious medical center in the country, doesn't even bother to verify the correct blood type. This little girls family sacrificed EVERYTHING, payed a smuggler to bring her to the United States, only to be killed by someones incomepetence. I hope those people can live with what they've done. Man this pisses me off to no end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserb Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 That really stinks that she is dead from the weakest of excuses. Doctors get thinking too much about the complex issue and then miss something simple like blood types or alergies etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Someone named kaiserb thinks out of the box.... er, uh crate.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Rufus, While it is true that the Doctor(s) is/are ultimately responsible for the tragedy that occurred at Duke, it is unreasonable to expect the Doctor(s) to double check everyone's work 24 hours a day. Your lack of insight directs your hatred towards the wrong people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserb Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 I am not a Doctor but I play one on TV..... Personally I do not, and would not rely on someone else for my final work product. In other words if I am responsible for a project I would double check even the simplest of things to be sure of the outcome. Did you know that airline pilots run through a check list, most of which is deminial, trivial things? However it is for a purpose, if the oil presure were reading low when checked, althougth it is not the pilots job to change the oil, he would most likely stop the flight to prevent an inflight disaster. Furthermore according to the FAA the pilot has the authority to ground the plane, and is ultimately repsonsible for the GO / NO GO descision for a flight. I really do nto think Rufus was being hateful, he was acting frustrated at the fact that the Doctors did not perform even a cursory review of the facts before surgery. Essentially the further up the management food chain you are the more responsible you are. And in this case the Team of Doctors was ultimately responsible for the outcome of their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Her death is a terrible thing. Never should have happened. Not just the "medical misadventure", but the whole and entire situation. The fact that she had not just one, but TWO extremely expensive surgeries WHILE IN THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY, on the taxpayer's dime (and stack of hundred dollar bills THIS big) is unacceptable. She and her illegal alien parents would have been shown the door in any other country on Earth (although there are a mere handful of countries capable of this kind of, ahem, cutting edge surgery). We as Americans, are entirely too kind. No other country (that I am aware of) allows unfettered illegal immigrants access to the rights and privileges afforded that country's citizens. Except us. I'm just a soldier, with a rather simplistic view of things, but when I know men and women who have served their country with honour and pride and are being told "well, we have no service available for that medical care you were promised, you are on your own" and then see this sort of travesty... American citizens on their own for the results of the gangrene earned at the Pusan perimeter, or from the systemic cancer caused by the Agent Orange at 'Trang, or for the missing leg from the land mine in Bosnia...yet a person can just bribe their way into this country and get top-dollar medical service (twice) at no cost to them...the system is broken. Our country is broken. The inmates are running the asylum. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhg Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Ditto! Right on Wakal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 I'm with Wakal on this one (almost). The death of that little girl is sad. The death of any child is sad. But don't try to make this into some sort of national tragedy, and don't try to make the doctors into villains. The reason she died is because she was desperately ill. So ill that she needed a heart and lung transplant. The very best that medical science might have been able to do would have been to delay her death a few years. The doctor(s) did not kill her. They made an heroic attempt to save her life and due to a mistake she died anyway. SHE WOULD HAVE DIED IF THEY HAD DONE NOTHING. This isn't some sort of national tragedy. Lots of people die every day. Lots of young women die every day because someone made a mistake. This case is only a "tragedy" because it is in the news. It is only in the news because a very high profile person made a high profile mistake and the media can make a profit by selling stories about it. What about all the little kids who died today because some idiot made a mistake and ran a red light? What about all the little kids who died today because someone made a mistake and started a fire that burned their house? What about all the little kids who died today because someone made a mistake and....Aren't those tragedies too? Are you going to start a hate rant for each one of them? Rufus, if you believe that this particular death is worthy of special notice then I strongly suggest that you seriously consider and evaluate your view of the world. I hate it when people allow themselves to be mislead by the inherent bias in the news media instead of honestly evaluating the facts that are presented. Stay Well, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 The chief surgeon has released a video tape in which he takes full responsibility - even in light of the fact that the mistake was probably made by a junior staff member. That shows a lot of integrity, especially in our lawsuit-happy little land. It's a crying shame all the way around. I'm betting no one on the medical team will ever be the same after this. Maybe a little less media-inspired inflamatory blame and a lot more empathy and forgiveness is in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted February 24, 2003 Author Share Posted February 24, 2003 America has many flaws, letting anyone and everyone in this country is one of them. But what makes America great is it's compassion for other coutries and it's people. I don't single out the entire medical profession, just the Doctors that placed the wrong organs in this girl. Yes, they absolutely should double check everyones work when the person laying on the table could die. The fact that this girl and her family were in this country illegally has no bearing on the fact that they are still beings desperately seeking help. I heard someone today say the only transplant she should have received was a transplant back to her country, what kind of heartless person thinks like that? We all make mistakes, but it's inexcusable for a Doctor not to personally insure what he's putting in a living person is of the correct type. We all make mistakes, yes burning a house down, getting hit by a car and getting murdered are all terrible things, but a Doctor doing something like this is not a mistake, it's incompetence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Thank God I'm perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 The issue that her and her family are in your country illegally is irrelevant. She came to get the best care available and she died. They made a mistake. I will take odds that the doctors involved would like a reshoot. I am damn sure that they feel sick. I know I would. What needs to happen is this. Send the family home. They don't belong there, regardless what happened to the girl. No law suits, that will do nothing for anyone. LEARN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3quartertime Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 "Thank God I'm perfect" Just figure that out??? You should have asked us earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Another tragic part of this is that someone could have used the organs they wasted on the first transplant. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 And that the illegal alien parents refused, after two sets of organs were used on their daughter at no cost to them, to allow any of their daughter's organs to be donated. Nice. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Yeah she was here illegally and yeah people die every day. I know what is is like to have to tell a family that their loved one isn't coming home because some idiot ran a red light or was drunk. Those people also end up sitting in a 4x8 cell. The bottom line is that family did what any one of you would do, they took their little girl to get the best medical care they could. So don't give me this self righteous crap that they should just send them home! I don't care if I had to take my child to Iraq to save it. This country has problems with the VA issues and the illegal immigrants coming in but it doesn't change the fact that the Doctor screwed up. What is it 100,000 a year that they kill with MISTAKES. I know first hand they damn near killed my wife with their screw ups! Checking the blood type is not rocket science. Before you whine ask yourself what you would do if it was your baby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 "Bring me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free." Somebody show me where taxes paid for her medical care, er, procedures. The fact of the matter is this: if she were from the other side of the upper border, not the other side of the lower border, her alien status wouldn't be an issue. Chriss, for once, I agree with you. P.S. Why didn't they have the transplant done in their native country? Socialized medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Rather naive of you to ask that, Erik. Who do you think pays for things when people (or their insurance companies) do not? Those illegals didn't pony up the quarter million dollars for her botched surgery, and the hospital will not just eat that cost. They will file a claim with the government, who will pay it out of hand. And the government pays for things with...why, I do believe it is our money. American tax dollars. Big Springs VA hospital is about two hours drive from here. I visit now and then, not as much as I should, but I'm emotionally weak and can't take that much pain on a voluntary basis. But you go, and talk to those loyal Americans, and tell them why they are way down the list for donated organs yet some illegal aliens can bribe their way into this country and get primo medical care...medical care paid for by the very government who won't take care of their own. The system is broken. Yes, the hospital messed up. Her death is a terrible thing. But she never should have been there in the first place. Mexico wants to be the equal of the US...well, then, they need to take care of their people instead of allowing them to sneak across our borders so we can take care of them instead. The Mexican Army shoots Guatemalans who sneak across the border INTO Mexico, but up north it is a different story. And Canada...Oh, Canada...I grew up in Minnesota. If socialized medicine worked, then why are all the hospitals in Minnesota crammed full of Canadians (who are willing to play their own way instead of trust their own socialized system)? That said, it sure is funny that Americans wander up to Canada to get their prescriptions filled cheap, instead of paying the malpractice and FDA-driven exorbitant US prices. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 "They will file a claim with the government, who will pay it out of hand." What government? The county? North Carolina state? Mexico? U.S. federal? Based on your comment about the VA, I assume U.S. feds. All I'm asking is that you show me, don't tell me. Point me to somewhere I can read about illegal aliens getting high-end medical procedures paid by taxes. I'm opened-minded about all but a few things. Anyway, guess what...? A dying little girl and a sick veteran both have the same moral right to benefit from the money extorted from other people, no right at all. BTW, that was a rhetorical question about why they didn't have it done in Mexico. Among the damage inflicted by socialized medicine, it runs some of the best doctors out of town (guess where to). The fact that somebody would travel to pay for health care instead of stay and get it for free is damning evidence of a failed system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 While I'm looking, why don't you tell me who you think is paying for the high-end medical procedures this illegal alien received? On the government front: state first, then federal, if I follow the Byzantine labyrinth of funding correctly. I'll poke around tomorrow when my brain isn't frozen solid and get some links for you. I'll see if I can find the lawsuit from California a few years back, too...that was fun reading. PDK filed a lawsuit against the federal government, demanding more money to cover health care expenses run up by illegals. Their theory was that since the federal government was responsible for the borders, and since the federal government wasn't stopping illegals from entering the US, then the federal government should have to pay the entire cost of treating illegals instead of just a portion. Neat idea, didn't work though. I really REALLY hope I misread what you wrote: ...and a sick veteran both have the same moral right to benefit from the money extorted from other people, no right at all. Extorted? I agree with that description of the tax fraud perpetrated on the American people over the last century, but part of the contract between soldiers and the US government was that the soldiers would have medical care, especially for injuries received in combat. The fact that most veterans do not receive that care is a crime, and the fact that a healthy chunk of the VA budget is left in Bethesda...the military hospital where congresscritters get walk-in service and the military gets turned away at the gate...is also a crime. But to say that veterans have no moral right to expect the government to fulfill their oft-stated obligations to take care of those veterans...I hope that isn't what you were saying, because you seem to be a highly intelligent and genuinely nice guy and that just wouldn't be in character. I must have misunderstood you. Alex (Edited by Wakal at 9:30 pm on Feb. 24, 2003) (Edited by Wakal at 9:32 pm on Feb. 24, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 So here we are, in the middle of a very heavy discussion about medical rights... on a competition shooting forum. Gentlemen, you may want to consider continuing your discussion in private. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 I believe this is a valid topic because we need to know who will pay if an illegal alien shoots the Nationals and injuries himself, who's gonna pay? Wakal, I'm with you all the way. >.>...and a sick veteran both have the same moral right >to benefit from the money extorted from other people, >no right at all. This made me sick, our Veterans deserve so much more than they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Extorted. Not persuaded or defrauded. If your claim is true, she benefitted (well, would have) from slave labor. Just because she's young and innocent and never hurt anybody doesn't give her the right to live at the expense of others. Just because a military veteran spent some time living at the expense of others doesn't give him the right to live at the further expense of others. And while the vet may have had a contract with the feds, he had no such deal with the individuals laboring to pay his salary, retirement, and health care (however lacking it may be). That money was extorted from them and given to him. Hopefully I've made the logic clear, even if you disagree with the underlying principles. I know that many similar surgeries of people you call illegal aliens are performed at no cost to U.S. taxpayers. Cleft palates are fixed, even co-joined twins are separated, by medical professionals willingly laboring for no cost at hospitals doing it for the public relations. That's voluntary charity. I'll go out on a limb and assume this was the case here until you show me that tax dollars were supposed to pay for this surgery and other expensive surgeries of non-citizens. ("Supposed to" because her death changes things.) And I'm sorry to contribute to the thread drift. Her death was a tragedy. Her cause of death was a tragic blunder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 Most hospitals and Doctors are required to do community service, not the type that ex-con's do, but rather public service work. As far as I understand, this operation had nothing to do with the Federal Govt. and Duke received no funds for the procedure. The service was probably provided by Duke at no cost to the family. It's unfortunate that the family decided against donating her organs considering she received 2 transplants. I don't know how I would react in that type of situation, but I'm sure there is a reason for it. Since I started this rather controversial thread, I think I should also end it. Good discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 "Just because a military veteran spent some time living at the expense of others doesn't give him the right to live at the further expense of others" Erik, come on! We all live at the expense of our veterans. As a surgeon myself, I always give veterans the V.I.P. treatment, and I don't care who thinks it is scrofulous. I'm with Wakal, I hope I have misunderstood you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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