GmanCdp Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) Edited October 30, 2011 by GmanCdp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogey Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Why are you assuming the "complainers" never or rarely SO sanctioned matches? After SOing 40 plus matches per year for the past 5 years that's pretty much the only people I hear complain. There might be an exception to the rule laced in there somewhere, but for the most part that is what I observe. Especially from the people that never seem to want to hold the scoreboard or timer in relief when an assigned SO is ready to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Why are you assuming the "complainers" never or rarely SO sanctioned matches? Because someone who contributes to the sport by being an SO so others can play the game would likely not claim that they are cheating in some way by working the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) So let me see if I get this right ... I am a SO, SOI, former AC, multi time sanctioned match director, multi time sanctioned match range master, multi time volunter at sanctioned matches, I have started or helped start several IDPA clubs, have assisted in every possible capacity at multiple sanctioned matches at the staffs request, designed/built prop's, assisted/worked on/supervised the construction of props and the set up of stages at sanctioned and local matches, been a match sponsor at dozens of sanctioned matches, and probably SO'ed at at least 200 local matches over the years, if not more, but since I 'complain' about things I believe IDPA should do better, none of that counts ... ? Did I get that right? And by the way, before you ask, everytime I had an offical position in an IDPA match, I didn't shoot for score. I have assisted in staffing a match, after being asked by the range staff during the match, and continued to shoot for score but only if that assistance was limited in nature. Edited October 30, 2011 by Bob Hostetter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Vigilante Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Bob, You are certainly entitled to your opinion-no one is saying that you're not. It just appears that most of the members on this forum disagree with you. Could be different on another forum-try one. You've about exhausted your attempts on this forum to change opinion so why keep it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankfan79 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) I'm about tied of seeing this thread. If you think S.O.'s cheat, then become an SO and attempt cheating. If not, then shoot and play. Just remember that people who attempt to cheat are remembered and friendship/sportsmanship is what really makes this sport fun. Currently the votes are 86-12 that they should shoot the same match. Obviously the majority thinks this is normal. Edited October 30, 2011 by hankfan79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) Actually if you go back to Post#58 you will see I changed my mind about SO's shooting separate matches. My most recent post(s) are in regards to the statement that people who complain or suggest changes in the way IDPA matches are run haven't paid their dues by working matches, sanctioned or otherwise. It is amusing that people who take such exception to preceived generalization about SO's are more then willing to make blanket generalizations about people who disagree with them. Kind of a double standard don't you think? Edited October 30, 2011 by Bob Hostetter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I am a SO, SOI, former AC, multi time sanctioned match director, multi time sanctioned match range master, multi time volunter at sanctioned matches, I have started or helped start several IDPA clubs, have assisted in every possible capacity at multiple sanctioned matches at the staffs request, designed/built prop's, assisted/worked on/supervised the construction of props and the set up of stages at sanctioned and local matches, been a match sponsor at dozens of sanctioned matches, and probably SO'ed at at least 200 local matches over the years, if not more, but since I 'complain' about things I believe IDPA should do better, none of that counts ... ? Did I get that right? I was looking at it from the other way. If you want to be in the competition at an IDPA match and think all SO's are cheaters, then you wouldn't be an SO...unless you wanted to be a cheater. Those of us that know better than that don't have that problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) And where did I or anyone else say "all SO's are cheaters"? Again broad generalizations not based in fact. Edited October 31, 2011 by Bob Hostetter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankfan79 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) I meant "YOU" as in ANYONE who thinks that. Cheat/advantage or anything of the type. BTW, the best cheaters (and I know some) cheat WITHOUT being s S.O. at the match. Edited October 31, 2011 by hankfan79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogey Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 So let me see if I get this right ... I am a SO, SOI, former AC, multi time sanctioned match director, multi time sanctioned match range master, multi time volunter at sanctioned matches, I have started or helped start several IDPA clubs, have assisted in every possible capacity at multiple sanctioned matches at the staffs request, designed/built prop's, assisted/worked on/supervised the construction of props and the set up of stages at sanctioned and local matches, been a match sponsor at dozens of sanctioned matches, and probably SO'ed at at least 200 local matches over the years, if not more, but since I 'complain' about things I believe IDPA should do better, none of that counts ... ? Did I get that right? And by the way, before you ask, everytime I had an offical position in an IDPA match, I didn't shoot for score. I have assisted in staffing a match, after being asked by the range staff during the match, and continued to shoot for score but only if that assistance was limited in nature. Well Bob, if this is all true, I find some of your statements rather shocking. You, better than anyone else, should know the logistics are rather restrictive on a one or two day match to allow shooters to all shoot at the same time. Consistency for the mass of shooters would suffer, and from group to group you would never have all conditions the same. I believe the original jist of this thread concerns SOs cheating, not necessarily advantages/disadvantages of weather related issues. I'm thinking most people understand there are limitations to how a match can run based on time. I'm not questioning your credentials or integrity here. As far as shooting a sanctioned match....I have never had a hand in set ups, so I have never had to recuse myself. If I did, I most certainly would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 >> Well Bob, if this is all true? >> If I was going to lie, it wouldn't be to you. The orginal question was if SO's should be scored separately, not if they were cheating. There are some who believe that scoring the match staff separately adds to the professionalism (or at least the perceived professionalism) of the sport. As far as the logistics involved in accomplishing the separation, yes it does causes some additional issues which in some geographical areas might be insurmountable. But there are some who believe we should work to solve these problems, not ignore them. HankFan79, since you readily admit to knowing others who cheat, I assume you have contacted the match MD where it ocurred and HQ's to revoke their membership? Right? Or is it OK if they are the "BEST" at cheating, or at least not SO's, or if they are your friends? Hmmmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 And where did I or anyone else say "all SO's are cheaters"? Again broad generalizations not based in fact. I know it's not based on fact; however, you can find it in the very first post of this thread. But my recollection is that he used the words, "there's always cheating" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Lot of different thoughts and viewpoints stated here....Every once in a while it seems this "cheating" thing flares up. This reminds me of the Lets Search the Range Bag thread about minor ammo switching/cheating. There are "cheaters" in every area of our lives. If SO's shoot .. they can be cheaters. Personally...I have seen damned few people who volunteer and use their "position" to create an unfair advantage for them or their shooting buddies. From my personal experiences - As to SO's giving their friends a break I can absolutely say MY SO/RO buddies don't give me anything more than the next guy but lots of (good natured) grief. If people are cheats the word always gets around and everyone knows them for what they are. It seems to me that those people usually find the climate gets really cold and they don't last in our sports that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogey Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 >> Well Bob, if this is all true? >> If I was going to lie, it wouldn't be to you. The orginal question was if SO's should be scored separately, not if they were cheating. There are some who believe that scoring the match staff separately adds to the professionalism (or at least the perceived professionalism) of the sport. As far as the logistics involved in accomplishing the separation, yes it does causes some additional issues which in some geographical areas might be insurmountable. But there are some who believe we should work to solve these problems, not ignore them. HankFan79, since you readily admit to knowing others who cheat, I assume you have contacted the match MD where it ocurred and HQ's to revoke their membership? Right? Or is it OK if they are the "BEST" at cheating, or at least not SO's, or if they are your friends? Hmmmm? It was a thread about cheating SOs that facilitated the possibility that SOs should shoot for separate scores. I give you this from the OP: I was a bit tired after the match, so it's possible I somewhat misconstrued some of the things he said. But my recollection is that he used the words, "there's always cheating" - that SOs don't call their buddies on the same infractions for which they'd ding regular shooters, stages may get adjusted on the SO shoot day, etc. ============================================================================================================== The only equitable way to handle this is to not allow the set-up crew to shoot for score. We have 50 SOs at the Carolina Cup working 16 stages every year. Not one of them has any advantage over any other SO. The 3-4 person set up crew doesn't really want to see a gun after 3 weeks of 8-10 hour days doing set up in the June heat here. Some may THINK they have an advantage, but I can assure anyone that asks, they don't. As far as "giving breaks" to their "buddies", they shouldn't be SOs if they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankfan79 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) >> HankFan79, since you readily admit to knowing others who cheat, I assume you have contacted the match MD where it ocurred and HQ's to revoke their membership? Right? Or is it OK if they are the "BEST" at cheating, or at least not SO's, or if they are your friends? Hmmmm? Nope. I don't make a habit of causing trouble with others in this sport. I support the rules and worry about my safety and others safety. You want their names so you can report them? Would that make you feel better? If they can live with cheating, then so be it. Do you report every speeder on the highway when you see them? I didn't think so. Edited October 31, 2011 by hankfan79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 What do y'all say we dispense with the bickering back and forth, lest this thread get closed or gutted. (friendly Moderator suggestion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 It is kind of a dead horse, when we have to go back and quote the first post. How about looking at it from another angle. For those who don't want to shoot with the SO's, how do you suggest we compensate them for all of the work involved, if they can't play with everyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Stuff like this is the reason I don't work matches of any size any more. I decided I had been cursed, cheated, and lied to and about enough to last me. A tiny percentage, most are good sports but there are enough bad apples out there to accelerate RO/SO burnout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I wanted to bicker some but I won't. However let me say this... if it was a requirement that all SOs had to do a separate match- that would destroy this sport- plain and simple. I can assure you that most of the staff would walk from helping going forward. I know I wouldn't help if that was the case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEC-Memphis Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I wanted to bicker some but I won't. However let me say this... if it was a requirement that all SOs had to do a separate match- that would destroy this sport- plain and simple. I can assure you that most of the staff would walk from helping going forward. I know I wouldn't help if that was the case... I would have to agree. A couple of the SOs in our last (Tri-State) commented that they may not SO next year because they tend to not shoot as well (tired, etc.) and they don't get the "have fun at a match" experience. Most of the time the SOs shoot the match either before/after/in-the-middle-of other match related work. Also, we have one group of SOs shoot the match and get the "kinks" worked out of the stages. The SO group may get more than one version of a walk through, and get to define what might be a procedural on a stage. This is a definite dis-advantage. When the non-SOs shoot the match, they have usually have the benefit of a being briefed about what might be a procedural for a particular CoF - something that the SOs didn't get. The SOs I have worked with want to earn their score "fair and square". What pride is there in cheating to win a piece of wood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Stuff like this is the reason I don't work matches of any size any more. I decided I had been cursed, cheated, and lied to and about enough to last me. A tiny percentage, most are good sports but there are enough bad apples out there to accelerate RO/SO burnout. That's where a good MD can make all the difference. Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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