3-Gun Sweden Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 What do you think of the new IPSC Shotgun Open rules? Specifically rule Nr. 18 Open Division 18. Detachable magazines accessible to a competitor during a COF must not contain more than 10 rounds at the Start Signal. However, detachable magazines with a capacity of up to 12 rounds are permitted. Magazines must not be clipped, taped or otherwise attached to any other magazine at any time. Guns with fixed magazines may have an initial load of 14 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I think open should be open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritzthemoose Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 What do you think of the new IPSC Shotgun Open rules? Specifically rule Nr. 18 Open Division 18. Detachable magazines accessible to a competitor during a COF must not contain more than 10 rounds at the Start Signal. However, detachable magazines with a capacity of up to 12 rounds are permitted. Magazines must not be clipped, taped or otherwise attached to any other magazine at any time. Guns with fixed magazines may have an initial load of 14 rounds. As I am just starting with SG in Open good as it saves me lots of money. On the other hand very very bad for the idea of open and also for IPSC and the shooter. More shadow matches less L3 Matches meaning less money for IPSC along with tweaked matches in on or the other direction depending on if y mag or tube guy is setting them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3-Gun Sweden Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 Interesting: Motion H: Banning chest rigs etc.: 30 in favour, 21 against, 3 abstentions Motion K: Open Division restrictions: 35 in favour, 13 against, 6 abstentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 If you already spent a mint on a saiga, it sux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I think it sucks much more for the Xrail guys than the Saiga guys. How many matches in the US are run under the IPSC rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Guess an XRAIL is now out of the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangeman711 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Are these changes IPSC only or USPSA also? Thanks: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritzthemoose Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Are these changes IPSC only or USPSA also? Thanks: Both I guess at least officially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Are these changes IPSC only or USPSA also? Thanks: Both I guess at least officially. No, IPSC rule changes dont automatically transfer to USPSA, fortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritzthemoose Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Are these changes IPSC only or USPSA also? Thanks: Both I guess at least officially. No, IPSC rule changes dont automatically transfer to USPSA, fortunately. Yep the rift is getting wider and wider. One does not want with the other and vice versa. However, as far as I know USPSA did not object (however I was not there) so I guess it will be valid for both and I also guess it will be valid internationaly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Are these changes IPSC only or USPSA also? Thanks: Both I guess at least officially. No, IPSC rule changes dont automatically transfer to USPSA, fortunately. Yep the rift is getting wider and wider. One does not want with the other and vice versa. However, as far as I know USPSA did not object (however I was not there) so I guess it will be valid for both and I also guess it will be valid internationaly. No, whether the US objected or not doesnt matter, USPSA has its own procedures to add, or change, its rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritzthemoose Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Are these changes IPSC only or USPSA also? Thanks: Both I guess at least officially. No, IPSC rule changes dont automatically transfer to USPSA, fortunately. Yep the rift is getting wider and wider. One does not want with the other and vice versa. However, as far as I know USPSA did not object (however I was not there) so I guess it will be valid for both and I also guess it will be valid internationaly. No, whether the US objected or not doesnt matter, USPSA has its own procedures to add, or change, its rules. I am not so familiar with how it works but Voigt objected against small rifle and made lots of enemies in the process. Wondering how this will go on With US legislation as strikt as it is right now the US is out of options for non US residents with regards to shooting. Also with regards to guns and gunparts it is becoming a non factor. So I guess it does not matter if it applies for the US or not. Matches in the US are a domestic affair and as soon as US shooters go internationally they have to follow IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SN13 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I run a Saiga-12 with a JT Engineering Magwell for AGP 10rd mags. When I was practicing alot my reloads were fast. So fast that it made starting with a drum and switching to a stick mag on stages of 22+ rounds was the same time as reloading twice on the magwell. On the other hand, I don't understand the rule. Why do they insist on keeping tube-guns competitive by adding restrictions? Imagine if they were adding rules to keep Winchester 30-30 lever actions competitive with ARs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3-Gun Sweden Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 Why do they insist on keeping tube-guns competitive by adding restrictions? Imagine if they were adding rules to keep Winchester 30-30 lever actions competitive with ARs. Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Are these changes IPSC only or USPSA also? Thanks: Both I guess at least officially. No, IPSC rule changes dont automatically transfer to USPSA, fortunately. Yep the rift is getting wider and wider. One does not want with the other and vice versa. However, as far as I know USPSA did not object (however I was not there) so I guess it will be valid for both and I also guess it will be valid internationaly. No, whether the US objected or not doesnt matter, USPSA has its own procedures to add, or change, its rules. I am not so familiar with how it works but Voigt objected against small rifle and made lots of enemies in the process. Wondering how this will go on With US legislation as strikt as it is right now the US is out of options for non US residents with regards to shooting. Also with regards to guns and gunparts it is becoming a non factor. So I guess it does not matter if it applies for the US or not. Matches in the US are a domestic affair and as soon as US shooters go internationally they have to follow IPSC. I would imagine our RD objected to the Mini Rifle proposal based on whether it was constitutional. Not whether or not he thought it was a good idea. IPSC Airsoft and Mini Rifle are certainly a far cry from the founding principals of IPSC. Who are the enemies he created? I would like to think that a difference of opinion on something wouldn't create an enemy, but could be worked out, as it was in this process. As far as the Shotgun proposals go, I don't know how the US RD voted. I'm pretty sure it was no, and no on several other proposed rule changes. Since IPSC doesn't record who votes for what I won't know for sure though. I'm not sure what you mean about gun laws being strict and matches in the US being domestic. We just held our Nationals with many international competitors. And we just won a bid for the 2014 WS so I would imagine we'll have a great many international shooters here in about three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Why do they insist on keeping tube-guns competitive by adding restrictions? Imagine if they were adding rules to keep Winchester 30-30 lever actions competitive with ARs. Well put. That would only be well put if most of the shooters currently were using lever action 30-30's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3-Gun Sweden Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Why do they insist on keeping tube-guns competitive by adding restrictions? Imagine if they were adding rules to keep Winchester 30-30 lever actions competitive with ARs. Well put. That would only be well put if most of the shooters currently were using lever action 30-30's. Well in Rifle the rules haven't changed in favour of 30-30s, like they have now in shotgun for tube-guns vs. boxed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Are these changes IPSC only or USPSA also? Thanks: Both I guess at least officially. No, IPSC rule changes dont automatically transfer to USPSA, fortunately. Yep the rift is getting wider and wider. One does not want with the other and vice versa. However, as far as I know USPSA did not object (however I was not there) so I guess it will be valid for both and I also guess it will be valid internationaly. USPSA runs USPSA matches under USPSA rules as well as IPSC matches under IPSC rules...... I don't know of many Rifle or Shotgun matches run under IPSC rules..... Those matches running under USPSA rules will not be affected.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Also keep in mind that we here in the US tend to run Multi-Gun matches as in stages with two or more guns whereas IPSC so far as I am aware only runs 3-Gun Tournaments with only one gun and type of firearm permitted on a stage. This makes for a major difference in how we look at the various rules. Too bad we can't run SBRs in so many states or suppressors. Suppressors would actually make us more neighbor friendly noise being one of the reasons ranges get closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritzthemoose Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) I would imagine our RD objected to the Mini Rifle proposal based on whether it was constitutional. Not whether or not he thought it was a good idea. IPSC Airsoft and Mini Rifle are certainly a far cry from the founding principals of IPSC. Who are the enemies he created? I would like to think that a difference of opinion on something wouldn't create an enemy, but could be worked out, as it was in this process. As far as the Shotgun proposals go, I don't know how the US RD voted. I'm pretty sure it was no, and no on several other proposed rule changes. Since IPSC doesn't record who votes for what I won't know for sure though. I'm not sure what you mean about gun laws being strict and matches in the US being domestic. We just held our Nationals with many international competitors. And we just won a bid for the 2014 WS so I would imagine we'll have a great many international shooters here in about three years. There are for sure good argumenst for but also against mini rifle. One against would be what you just mentioned but there are also others. On the other hand there are many who are in favour because it is nearly impossible to have real file matches in their area due to locations. In general you can say that in the densly populated areas in lets say Central Europe it is hard to find a place where you have up to 300m. In all of Austria there are only 2 or maybe 3 ranges with up to 300m and those ranges are for precision shooting so you cannot have a match there even if they would allow the range to be used. If you follow the the arguments in some other forums the basic problem people have with it is that he wants to have his say in international matters but then turns around and does not care about international matters at home. Travelling to the US with a gun is a hassle you cannot imagine. It is for sure easier if we are talking WS as it is the highest level. Its also possible if you shoot lets say Glock Production Division as you dont have to bring your weapon or amo you just use one from there. But try to bring your own and you would be surprised. Also planning your travel route is a nightmare as soon as you have to go through more than the state the match is in. If you qualify for the WS its maybe still worth doing but just going there for any L3 match................. If you buy a screw or a spring or any other part of a gun, and I am not talking barrel or so, and want to take it out of the US without an end user certificate you end up in jail. A rifle sling could be ITAR. Importing aimpoints from Sweden is OK but sending the same one back to Sweden one day later would be illegal. On a business trip some time ago I saw a Glock trigger in a shop. As I needed one anyway I though lets buy it as it there and I dont have to go in Austria then. The guy in the shop said it would be illegal to sell it to me as I am no US resident. Believe me we have seen the one or other Glock in Austria and even used one Suppy of US guns or gunparts is getting very hard and you never know if you can get new parts from the US at all. They also are very expensive as the permits and so on are a nightmare. So people turn away and buy non US products. My AR 15 is made in Germany my 2011 is from Spain. I would not buy a STI for example. Not because they are bad we all know they are not but because I cannot be sure to get parts in the future. The US is loosing out on an estimated 100 to 120 billion US a year due to ITAR. I am not talking private parts or gunsales but in general. OK this is an US law so it must be OK for the US to loose out on it. Edited October 6, 2011 by ima45dv8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) Travelling to the US with a gun is a hassle you cannot imagine. It is for sure easier if we are talking WS as it is the highest level. Its also possible if you shoot lets say Glock Production Division as you dont have to bring your weapon or amo you just use one from there. But try to bring your own and you would be surprised. Also planning your travel route is a nightmare as soon as you have to go through more than the state the match is in. If you qualify for the WS its maybe still worth doing but just going there for any L3 match................. <snipped some whining> Send in a Form 6 NIA to the ATF (doesnt even cost anything), wait a few weeks, get the form back. Lock up your gun in a hard case, or separate in two cases, depending on airline. Show customs your gun and papers. Enter the US. If nervous about state laws, keep the gun in your locked case until you get to a range. In my experience, traveling to the US with guns is way easier and hassle-free than traveling around, or entering Europe, with guns. (I lived and competed in Europe for quite a few years before moving to the US) Edited October 6, 2011 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 What is the current capacity restriction, if any, for USPSA SG Open Division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 What is the current capacity restriction, if any, for USPSA SG Open Division? I think you know the answer already However, there arent really that many USPSA or IPSC shotgun matches in the US, or even multi/3-gun-matches run under USPSA rules. The majority of 3-gun/multigun matches are run under IMA (or some version of IMA) rules where there's no limitation on rounds loaded in Open. Of course, the shotgun capacity limit in USPSA is not the only reason why IMA is a more popular ruleset, but its one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 What is the current capacity restriction, if any, for USPSA SG Open Division? 10+1 for now. Very likely to change with the next rulebook. We're trying to move forward, not backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now