Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I can't speak for Kevin, but what I would like to know about the rules, is should I have halted the shooter until compliance, and if so, is it a Re-shoot? OK, if you want to get that exact....what exactly were the parameters stated by the WSB of the stage you shot at that match? The particulars obviously can't be based upon 09-03 since you said those parameters weren't presented and thus weren't followed. Did the stage you shot specify where the ammo should be during the Course of Fire? As Brian stated ........... apparently we DID have the newest version. And as such IT WAS run correctly. Therefore .........I'm totally lost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Which part of the WSB is the overriding part. That looks to be the same WSB as the one I read off the USPSA site. Under start position it say "extra ammo" but under procedure it says "all ammo for the stage". Which part take precedence? Also what does all ammo for the stage mean? Does that mean all ammo required to shoo the stage or all ammo that the shooter would have access to during the stage? It says, "all ammo for the stage". Any other interpretation is an attempt to game the stage (questioning the ammo a shooter "would use" vs. the ammo a shooter "would have accesible"). In any other case I'd be on the "gaming" side, except...this is a Classifier. The Classifier workbook tells us not to "game" classifiers because they are the ONLY stages used across the entire organization to determine a skill level for the shooter. Just shoot it. Shoot it straight up. Shoot it as the WSB mandates, and move on. And don't piss and moan if it's your first stage of a match. :roflol: Just shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Mark I think you're missing something. Re-read the WSB from top to bottom. The START POSITION says one thing, and the PROCEDURE says another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I'm having trouble posting a pic of the WSB. All I posted was an attachment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Mark I think you're missing something. Re-read the WSB from top to bottom. The START POSITION says one thing, and the PROCEDURE says another. No, I didn't miss that the stage procedure clearly states, "...all ammo for the stage will be on the table." Can that be ignored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Mark I think you're missing something. Re-read the WSB from top to bottom. The START POSITION says one thing, and the PROCEDURE says another. No, I didn't miss that the stage procedure clearly states, "...all ammo for the stage will be on the table." Can that be ignored? No, it can not. Clearly this WSB needs to be revised, for continuity reasons. So back to my question ....... Should I have issued a re-shoot, for starting the shooter in non-compliance with the WSB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I don't think this is hard: START POSITION: Standing in shooting area behind table, hands naturally at sides, loaded firearm and extra ammo on table. Note: The start position says nothing about "all ammo" needing to be on the table. Chris -- in your example of a shooter who had a loaded gun and an extra mag on the table -- I think you were fine to start him. Next Bit: STAGE PROCEDURE: String 1: On signal, engage targets with only two rounds each.String 2: On signal, engage each target with only two rounds each. Both strings will start with gun on the table. All ammo for the stage will be on the table. Gun is not to be propped up in any manner. All rounds must be fired from within the shooting area. Did the competitor comply with the part in bold? Did he reload with that extra mag, or use the one that was already in the gun to finish the stage? Then, no harm, no foul -- he didn't use any ammo that wasn't on the table.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) [EDIT:] No he did not use anything but the mag on the table, for any part of the COF. I'm just curious about an RO starting a shooter in any start position other than what is stipulated in the WSB .... for future reference. Edited October 3, 2011 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 So back to my question ....... Should I have issued a re-shoot, for starting the shooter in non-compliance with the WSB? Your original quandry in post #15, said the competitor completed the CoF with only those magazines he placed on the table. In spite of that, he still had two more magazines on his belt. The WSB says, "All ammo for the stage will be on the table." Unless he used magazines on his belt to complete the CoF I can't see grounds for a reshoot. By using only ammo in the gun or on the table he DID comply with the WSB, I don't see where it says, "...all ammo the competitor possesses". If he only used what was on the table, I'd record the time, score the targets and move on to the next competitor in line. All that said, I stand by the cautionary note I made about "gaming" Classifiers. It doesn't seem it happened in this case, but when we see it, we need to stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 It is all becoming quite clear now. The start position and the procedure are worded differently. Even though I started this "discussion" I must confess the procedure probably takes precedence over the start position description. BUT since it is a classifier where a target being so much as an inch out of position can void it out I think the WSB should be updated to remove any doubt as to the procedure. And based on the assumption the procedure takes precedence it would be OK to start a shooter with mags on his belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (Kevin, see what you started ?) PS One day you may earn yourself a new nickname for your "rules discussions". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 If it's on the printed page, you can't just ignore it. Do I think it could be worded better? Oh, Hell yes! (I feel your pain, Sarge!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 If he only used what was on the table, I'd record the time, score the targets and move on to the next competitor in line. He did, and we did. And no, no "gaming" was ever intended, nor inferred. I'm just trying to look at this stage from every angle. And I'm beginning to side with Kevin ..... in that every letter of every word, must be followed to a T. So how is it ok to start a shooter with ammo on his belt, when it clearly says not to? In this example the shooter didn't use those mags, but he could have. How does that comply with the WSB? What if he had a jam, and used one (or both)? Are we just supposed to let it slide, until such an action occurs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 And for the record ..... I'm not questioning this for the sake of the shooter ..... I merely want to know if I was the one in the wrong, for starting him with ammunition on his belt. IMO that does NOT comply with the WSB. (And no, I did not offer him a reshoot) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 If he only used what was on the table, I'd record the time, score the targets and move on to the next competitor in line. He did, and we did. And no, no "gaming" was ever intended, nor inferred. I'm just trying to look at this stage from every angle. And I'm beginning to side with Kevin ..... in that every letter of every word, must be followed to a T. So how is it ok to start a shooter with ammo on his belt, when it clearly says not to? In this example the shooter didn't use those mags, but he could have. How does that comply with the WSB? What if he had a jam, and used one (or both)? Are we just supposed to let it slide, until such an action occurs? Because of the WSB, which I wouldn't characterize as "poorly written" (as I've seen enough examples of those -- this is just..."written poorly" ), I'd say it's OK to start the competitor with additional ammo on his belt -- AS LONG AS HE DIDN'T USE IT during the CoF. If he went for a belt-mounted mag during an oh-shit moment, he'd get penalties for that lapse (maybe even per-shot, depending on the circumstances). It's not a perfect world, but given the circumstances, that's where I would stand in it, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 This WSB and the discussion around it are one of the reasons that some people out there think USPSA/IPSC is all about a bunch of Damned Range Lawyers and not about the shooting. We have lost our minds if you ask me. This is a common sense issue here. Put enough ammo on the table to shoot the entire stage and get it done. This ranks right up with the barney mag for SS and Prod being in the front pocket at LAMR or after ULSC-ICHDH. It has ZERO/NADA/NONE effect on the competition, the shooting, the score. We have enough rules that require interpretations. Let us try hard to make our basic rules simple and easy to enforce fairly and across the board. One should not have to worry about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin in order to compete in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) So back to my question ....... Should I have issued a re-shoot, for starting the shooter in non-compliance with the WSB? Simple answer is you should not start until the competitor matches the start position. In this case I would wait until the competitor loaded his gun and placed it and 'extra' ammo on the table. I would accept one magazine/moonclip/speed loader as 'extra'. The procedure doesn't come into play until after the beep. If a competitor starts with ammo on his belt that's OK. If he uses ammo from somewhere other than the table, he gets procedurals. I would only assess one unless pulling from the belt achieved some kind of advantage. To summarize, if you start a competitor then discover he was not in the correct start position, stop and re-shoot. If a competitor violates procedure after a legitimate start let him finish and assess procedurals. Edited October 3, 2011 by Gary Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [EDIT:] No he did not use anything but the mag on the table, for any part of the COF. I'm just curious about an RO starting a shooter in any start position other than what is stipulated in the WSB .... for future reference. You started this shooter according to the Start Position, right? If you ever find you didn't -- reshoot..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Read through most of this and then decided to skip to the end so if this was already posted... We shot this recently and our take was only the ammo needed to shoot the stage was required on the table. Most of us played it safe and put an extra mag on the table meaning 2 for Production/ Lim 10 and 1 for Open and Limited. That way we had the loaded gun and at least one extra mag for the "Oh, Crap" factor so that it would still come off the table in compliance with the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 If he only used what was on the table, I'd record the time, score the targets and move on to the next competitor in line. He did, and we did. And no, no "gaming" was ever intended, nor inferred. I'm just trying to look at this stage from every angle. And I'm beginning to side with Kevin ..... in that every letter of every word, must be followed to a T. So how is it ok to start a shooter with ammo on his belt, when it clearly says not to? In this example the shooter didn't use those mags, but he could have. How does that comply with the WSB? What if he had a jam, and used one (or both)? Are we just supposed to let it slide, until such an action occurs? Re the first bit in bold -- No where in Start Position did it tell you all ammo on the table. So, the shooter can start with 89 million rounds on his person if he wants. The only requirements are 1) that there be extra ammo on the table, and 2) that all ammo for the stage -- i.e. ammo used to complete the COF come from the table..... At the point where the shooter has a jam, and uses something off his belt, that's when you assess a procedural..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 And for the record ..... I'm not questioning this for the sake of the shooter ..... I merely want to know if I was the one in the wrong, for starting him with ammunition on his belt. IMO that does NOT comply with the WSB. (And no, I did not offer him a reshoot) That's because you didn't interfere with the shooter, right? Because that's the only re-shoot you "get to offer." All others, including starting someone in the wrong position are mandatory, i.e. you order the competitor to reshoot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Easy fix in WSB would be... "In event of malfunction or reload requirement, all reloads must come from the table." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 This WSB and the discussion around it are one of the reasons that some people out there think USPSA/IPSC is all about a bunch of Damned Range Lawyers and not about the shooting. We have lost our minds if you ask me. This is a common sense issue here. Put enough ammo on the table to shoot the entire stage and get it done. This ranks right up with the barney mag for SS and Prod being in the front pocket at LAMR or after ULSC-ICHDH. It has ZERO/NADA/NONE effect on the competition, the shooting, the score. We have enough rules that require interpretations. Let us try hard to make our basic rules simple and easy to enforce fairly and across the board. One should not have to worry about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin in order to compete in USPSA. Now. Now. Now. Yes it's all about the rules and not the shooting. Because. Well that's the way it is as I've been told over and over again when I challenge something. I'm told it's my responsibility to know all the rules. Ok but it's also my/your responsibility to challenge those same rules if they appear to be silly. A fine example is the Scoring of A Zone hits the same for both Major and Minor Power Factors. It's a rule for those who are unwilling, won't or can't shoot Major PF but want to compete and win but cannot without that rule. They need that competitive advantage because without it they are... Now to the OP. Two strings. 3 targets. 2 rounds per target. Ammo required 12 rounds. Extra ammo on the table. Just like a loaded gun is inert in the holster mags or moon clips on a belt are non existent in this instance. The only ammo allowed is what is in the gun and on the table. Its not that hard to understand. Of course I'm probably wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 WTG, There is a very valid reason for all "A"Hits to be 5 points and there is arguable a "PRACTICAL" reason.. Scoring, all scores are a percentage of the stage winner's score by virtue of the HHF. HHF gets all the points and your HF against the HHF gets you a percentage of the Points. If a Minor and a Major shooter all shot a stage with all A hits, say 20 rounds 100 points for Major and did it in say 10 seconds they currently get a HF of 10. if we assigned only 4 points to Minor he would have to shoot the stage 20% faster to get the same HF. Not probably realistic if one looks at match results across divisions, L-10 or SS and Production times are not 20% apart. Practical considerations take into account the non-PC part of our sport, A hit to CM with major or minor is likely the end of a confrontation whereas a hit in the peripherals might not end the situation so quickly or at all so fewer points are awarded to encourage the shooters of minor PF guns to be more accurate. Or at least that is the way I see it. As for the rules. I am a firm believer in do not make rules that you can't or won't enforce. If someone else makes such a rule work to get it changed. Sometimes the only way to get the attention needed focused on the problem rule is to enforce it. In a game this is fine, not so in RL. But then we are anly talking about a game here, aren't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) It seems simple to me that "all ammo" means all ammo that is eligible to be used during the COF without inuring a penalty. In this example the shooter didn't use those mags, but he could have. Then he gets a procedural if he draws from his belt and not the prescribed position. It is up to the shooter to determine how much ammo to place on the table, his belt or wherever ammo must be staged and not the RO. Edited October 3, 2011 by Loves2Shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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