aztecdriver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) [misread the article - deleted] Edited October 4, 2011 by aztecdriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) This WSB and the discussion around it are one of the reasons that some people out there think USPSA/IPSC is all about a bunch of Damned Range Lawyers and not about the shooting. We have lost our minds if you ask me. This is a common sense issue here. Put enough ammo on the table to shoot the entire stage and get it done. This ranks right up with the barney mag for SS and Prod being in the front pocket at LAMR or after ULSC-ICHDH. It has ZERO/NADA/NONE effect on the competition, the shooting, the score. We have enough rules that require interpretations. Let us try hard to make our basic rules simple and easy to enforce fairly and across the board. One should not have to worry about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin in order to compete in USPSA. Now. Now. Now. Yes it's all about the rules and not the shooting. Because. Well that's the way it is as I've been told over and over again when I challenge something. I'm told it's my responsibility to know all the rules. Ok but it's also my/your responsibility to challenge those same rules if they appear to be silly. A fine example is the Scoring of A Zone hits the same for both Major and Minor Power Factors. It's a rule for those who are unwilling, won't or can't shoot Major PF but want to compete and win but cannot without that rule. They need that competitive advantage because without it they are... Now to the OP. Two strings. 3 targets. 2 rounds per target. Ammo required 12 rounds. Extra ammo on the table. Just like a loaded gun is inert in the holster mags or moon clips on a belt are non existent in this instance. The only ammo allowed is what is in the gun and on the table. Its not that hard to understand. Of course I'm probably wrong. WTG, I've told you the reasoning behind the scoring issue at least 3 different times in 3 different threads. EACH AND EVERY time you have failed to respond or continue the discussion. UNTIL THE NEXT time you bring up the same argument. Either DISCUSS the issue, or drop it and move on. Jim told you THE EXACT same thing that I've told you in the past. I'm quite frankly very tired of the process - either buck up and discuss it or drop it and move on. ETA- I will almost guarantee that you will ignore this post, just like each and every time in the past because it doesn't serve your purpose to try and learn something - you prefer to drive by and snipe at the things you don't understand. Edited October 3, 2011 by aztecdriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 There's no support for a procedural for failing to follow the stage description. Have a look at rule 10.1.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 There's no support for a procedural for failing to follow the stage description. Have a look at rule 10.1.1 Hey Gary, I meant support in loves2shoot for assigning a procedural for leaving the mags on the belt, in this particular stage. The requirement for the ammo on the table is part of the start position. You can't let them sit there with a mag on their belt, and then after you start them, ding them for 10.1.1 right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) It seems simple to me that "all ammo" means all ammo that is eligible to be used during the COF without inuring a penalty. In this example the shooter didn't use those mags, but he could have. Then he gets a procedural if he draws from his belt and not the prescribed position. It is up to the shooter to determine how much ammo to place on the table, his belt or wherever ammo must be staged and not the RO. Disagree - respectfully. The competitor needs to assume the start position, and as the ammo stipulation is in the start position, the competitor should not have been started with ammo on the belt - IF that's how the stage description is interpreted to be read. Either it's a reshoot, or it's a no factor because the ammo for the stage was on the table and the rest is moot. There's no support for a procedural for failing to follow the stage description. If the ammo is deemed to not be permitted on the belt, then the RO should not have started them due to not having assumed the proper start position, per the WSB. If the shooter has enough ammo to complete the COF in the prescribed position, then the start position has been met. The WSB stated ammo for the stage, and does NOT apply to ammo not used for the stage, ie extra ammo on the belt. 10.1 and 10.2 address how to apply procedural penalties in this case if they reload from ammo on the belt and not the table. This is not an uncommon start position, and it is common for people to have extra mags NOT TO BE USED FOR THE STAGE on there belt on such stages. Edited October 4, 2011 by Loves2Shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 There's no support for a procedural for failing to follow the stage description. Have a look at rule 10.1.1 Hey Gary, I meant support in loves2shoot for assigning a procedural for leaving the mags on the belt, in this particular stage. The requirement for the ammo on the table is part of the start position. You can't let them sit there with a mag on their belt, and then after you start them, ding them for 10.1.1 right? You might want to read what I quoted. He said they could use those magazines, and I replied if they did, penalties apply, not that they would get a penalty for having unneeded ammo for the stage on their belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 It seems simple to me that "all ammo" means all ammo that is eligible to be used during the COF without inuring a penalty. In this example the shooter didn't use those mags, but he could have. Then he gets a procedural if he draws from his belt and not the prescribed position. It is up to the shooter to determine how much ammo to place on the table, his belt or wherever ammo must be staged and not the RO. Disagree - respectfully. The competitor needs to assume the start position, and as the ammo stipulation is in the start position, the competitor should not have been started with ammo on the belt - IF that's how the stage description is interpreted to be read. Either it's a reshoot, or it's a no factor because the ammo for the stage was on the table and the rest is moot. There's no support for a procedural for failing to follow the stage description. If the ammo is deemed to not be permitted on the belt, then the RO should not have started them due to not having assumed the proper start position, per the WSB. If the shooter has enough ammo to complete the COF in the prescribed position, then the start position has been met. The WSB stage ammo for the stage, and does NOT apply to ammo not used for the stage, ie extra ammo on the belt. 10.1 and 10.2 address how to apply procedural penalties in this case. This is not an uncommon start position, and it is common for people to have extra mags NOT TO BE USED FOR THE STAGE on there belt on such stages. Dang it. Misread what you typed. Feel free to delete my posts. Completely agree and wondering why my eyes were spinning as I thought this pretty simple. My bad. Continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 There's no support for a procedural for failing to follow the stage description. Have a look at rule 10.1.1 Hey Gary, I meant support in loves2shoot for assigning a procedural for leaving the mags on the belt, in this particular stage. The requirement for the ammo on the table is part of the start position. You can't let them sit there with a mag on their belt, and then after you start them, ding them for 10.1.1 right? Spot on, I stand corrected. If you start knowing something is wrong 8.2.2 says it's a re-shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 It seems simple to me that "all ammo" means all ammo that is eligible to be used during the COF without inuring a penalty. In this example the shooter didn't use those mags, but he could have. Then he gets a procedural if he draws from his belt and not the prescribed position. It is up to the shooter to determine how much ammo to place on the table, his belt or wherever ammo must be staged and not the RO. Disagree - respectfully. The competitor needs to assume the start position, and as the ammo stipulation is in the start position, the competitor should not have been started with ammo on the belt - IF that's how the stage description is interpreted to be read. Either it's a reshoot, or it's a no factor because the ammo for the stage was on the table and the rest is moot. There's no support for a procedural for failing to follow the stage description. If the ammo is deemed to not be permitted on the belt, then the RO should not have started them due to not having assumed the proper start position, per the WSB. Not necessarily. Having ammo on the belt satisfies the competitor/gun start position. Using such ammo, violates the stage procedure -- resulting in procedurals..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Not necessarily. Having ammo on the belt satisfies the competitor/gun start position. Using such ammo, violates the stage procedure -- resulting in procedurals..... Already addressed that I misread what Scott was posting.... I deleted the errant post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Placing my vote in the keep as much on the belt as you want, you just cant use it list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Not necessarily. Having ammo on the belt satisfies the competitor/gun start position. Using such ammo, violates the stage procedure -- resulting in procedurals..... Already addressed that I misread what Scott was posting.... I deleted the errant post. Sorry Aztec, it's what happens when I'm gone all day, read and reply in order..... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Not necessarily. Having ammo on the belt satisfies the competitor/gun start position. Using such ammo, violates the stage procedure -- resulting in procedurals..... Already addressed that I misread what Scott was posting.... I deleted the errant post. Sorry Aztec, it's what happens when I'm gone all day, read and reply in order..... :D No issues, Nik - I do it all the time too - including this time -- open mouth and insert keyboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Open mouth and insert keyboard I like that! Mind if I plagiarize? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Fire away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdwarth Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I didn't get to shoot this stage... ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaciLyn Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Holy Cow! I'm so glad I read this thread! What a lesson it's been in paying very close attention to EXACT wording. I'll be sitting through my first RO class very sooon and now know to not only pay attention to what is stated, but also, how it's stated. I have learned some very valuable lessons on this forum....in the least expected places! Thanks for the heads up (no matter how unintentional). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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