Sarge Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 We shot CM09-03 Oh No at a local match yesterday. Very simple, shoot six for time then reload if needed and shoot six for time again. WSB stated "extra" ammo had to be on table. Several questions came up: Since it is a two string classifier with no reloads on the clock, what is the reasoning behind having extra ammo on the table? Is it just to trick somebody into loading from the belt and earning a procedural? What constitutes Extra ammo? Just the ammo needed to shoot string two? If thats the case could a shooter have other mags in his pouches? One shooter put his extra ammo on the table that he would need for string two but had two other mags on his belt. These were never going to be needed for the classifier so we(I) pretty much figured they did not qualify as extra ammo. Generally a WSB will say "All" ammo and that is pretty self explanatory. No ammo on your person. Then another question hit me: If the WSB says all ammo must be on the table doesn't that mean all ammo ie, even what is in your range bag? Should WSB say all ammo used to complete this COF? It dawned on me that every time there is a rules question about a WSB the general consensus is to follow it to the letter. Please don't say that common sense applies because that reply has been shot down numerous times during rules discussions. OK so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Sarge, I thought you had to wait the requisite 1 week to post this in the "Rules" forum .............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 We hadn't ran that one before. I think it came in with the wave of classifiers that needed some tweaking in their wording. Probably a good idea to suggest some better wording and send it off to NRIO. (Because you are right...I can't see where the ammo really matters.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) Either you're misremembering or someone misread the briefing. CM09-03: Both strings will start with gun on the table. All ammo for the stage will be on the table. Gun is not to be propped up in any manner. All rounds must be fired from within the shooting area. Not sure why the designer wanted ammo on the table. Maybe he feels snatching mags off a table is an essential shooting skill. Edited October 2, 2011 by Gary Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I think it's OK, given that it's a table start. It's not uncommon to have stages where gun and all ammo for the stage must be placed on a table. I can see where a tweak in the wording would reduce the huh? factor, but it's not that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Not sure why the designer wanted ammo on the table. Maybe he feels snatching mags off a table is an essential shooting skill. Then he/she would have had to design a stage that actually tested that. This one is a loaded gun...6 rounds per string...Virginia count. Snatching a mag from the table never really comes up. (Aaaah...I see...Kevin's first line of his post made it sound like there was a reload on the clock.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 Not sure why the designer wanted ammo on the table. Maybe he feels snatching mags off a table is an essential shooting skill. Then he/she would have had to design a stage that actually tested that. This one is a loaded gun...6 rounds per string...Virginia count. Snatching a mag from the table never really comes up. (Aaaah...I see...Kevin's first line of his post made it sound like there was a reload on the clock.) Not really Flex. My first sentence said "Very simple, shoot six for time then reload if needed and shoot six for time again" And no, there was no snatching involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 2, 2011 Author Share Posted October 2, 2011 Either you're misremembering or someone misread the briefing. CM09-03: Both strings will start with gun on the table. All ammo for the stage will be on the table. Gun is not to be propped up in any manner. All rounds must be fired from within the shooting area. Not sure why the designer wanted ammo on the table. Maybe he feels snatching mags off a table is an essential shooting skill. Neither is the case. If your info is accurate then the WSB was miswritten. I read it and it did not say the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Gary's right. That's what it says: "All ammo for the stage will be on the table." http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/09-03.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Kevin's point is...the wsb could say the rest of your ammo has to be in your car. Since it has no real effect on how you shoot the stage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Kevin's point is...the wsb could say the rest of your ammo gas to be in your car. Since it has no real effect on how you shoot the stage And in that case, Kevin's point would be waaaay out in left field. Yeah, it could say that....but it didn't. The WSB clearly stated, "All ammo for the stage will be on the table." It said nothing about all ammo to be used throughout the match, "in or out of the competitors car". Trying to equate that to ammo anywhere on the range is....a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I think the point is; "what's the point?" It's a loaded start. Why does it matter where the ammo is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I think the point is; "what's the point?" It's a loaded start. Why does it matter where the ammo is? Isn't that arguing intent? Doesn't everyone usually agree that intent of the stage designer is meaningless once the stage hits the ground? I'm arguing the WSB.It matters (only) because the WSB says so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Since it is a loaded table start, with 6 rounds per string, the only time ammo would be needed from the table would be a malfunction. In other words, I agree, it is rather pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) OK, but what we are trying to figure out is, what is the legality of running a shooter who does not meet the WSB 100%? Here is the scenario: We had a Prod. shooter who walked up, made ready, laid his loaded gun on the table (11 rds max.), and assumed the start position. So I (as the RO) told him this is a 6-shot, 2-string classifier, so seeing as you will need to shoot 12 shots total, you should put your other mags on the table. He then laid 1 more mag on the table, and since I was on the shooters right-hand side (clipboard RO on his left) assumed that would be sufficient, and started him. He shot the stage as per the WSB, but after ULASC, the clipboard RO (Kevin) said "he still had 2 more mags on his belt. Is that a problem?" So I said well, technically, as the RO, I should NOT have started him until he complied with the WSB 100%. So with that being my fault, it would be a Re-shoot ...... or would it? The WSB we had present at the range that day didn't say "ALL AMMO ON TABLE". It just said "EXTRA AMMO ON TABLE." So at this point, my questions are as follows: 1. Is it the RO, or Clipboard RO's, responsibility to halt the shooter until he complies with the WSB? 2. If it is, and they allowed the shooter to start the COF, is it a Re-shoot? 3. If not, is it a procedural if the shooter uses a mag from their belt (per Rule 10.2.2) Edited October 3, 2011 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 What if his gun had jammed on String #2, and he reloaded from the belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Chris, I'd love to offer an opinion on this but as you said, the WSB as presented at the match was incorrect. What did it actually say? Unless the WSB at the match said, "All ammo for the stage will be on the table", aren't we chasing a moving target? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Might have been a good idea to post the WSB at the top of this thread. Mark can you help with that? 09-03.pdf [EDIT:] Hmmmm ....... It appears that we were using an older WSB, as it did NOT say "All Ammo". It said "Extra Ammo". Edited October 3, 2011 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Mark can you help with that? You beat me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Chris, I'd love to offer an opinion on this but as you said, the WSB as presented at the match was incorrect. What did it actually say? Unless the WSB at the match said, "All ammo for the stage will be on the table", aren't we chasing a moving target? Obviously, they have revised the WSB to make it much clearer. But what exactly is the difference between ALL, and EXTRA? If the shooter had ammo on his belt, then that ammo was clearly in play during the stage, simply from the fact that he "could have" used it. Edited October 3, 2011 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Chris, I'd love to offer an opinion on this but as you said, the WSB as presented at the match was incorrect. What did it actually say? Unless the WSB at the match said, "All ammo for the stage will be on the table", aren't we chasing a moving target? Obviously, they have revised the WSB to make it much clearer. But what exactly is the difference between ALL, and EXTRA? If the shooter had ammo on his belt, then that ammo was clearly in play during the stage, simply from the fat that he could have used it. Yeah, I would guess that someone got hold of an older version prior to the match. That stuff/she-ite happens. Don't post it as a Classifier to USPSA and move on. [shrug] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I can't speak for Kevin, but what I would like to know about the rules, is should I have halted the shooter until compliance, and if so, is it a Re-shoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Don't post it as a Classifier to USPSA and move on. [shrug] Too late .......... You know how us GM Statistitions are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I can't speak for Kevin, but what I would like to know about the rules, is should I have halted the shooter until compliance, and if so, is it a Re-shoot? OK, if you want to get that exact....what exactly were the parameters stated by the WSB of the stage you shot at that match? The particulars obviously can't be based upon 09-03 since you said those parameters weren't presented and thus weren't followed. Did the stage you shot specify where the ammo should be during the Course of Fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Which part of the WSB is the overriding part. That looks to be the same WSB as the one I read off the USPSA site. Under start position it say "extra ammo" but under procedure it says "all ammo for the stage". Which part take precedence? Also what does all ammo for the stage mean? Does that mean all ammo required to shoo the stage or all ammo that the shooter would have access to during the stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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