Vince Pinto Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Kelly, You and I, as the only sane voices in the wilderness, must remain firm and resolute in our defence of the rules and in rejecting "unofficial combined scores", which are clearly an abomination that must be stopped at all costs, otherwise the essential spirit and soul of IPSC will be lost to the wicked purveyors of evil. Perdition to the great unwashed masses - we shall fight them to the death! TO ARMS!! TO ARMS, I SAY!! And remember our motto: "Ask not what the rulebook can do for you. Ask what you can do for the rulebook" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 So now the rest of us are the great unwashed and are all insane? I take exception to that and I demand a retraction! Lame attempts at humor are to be squashed at every turn. Any reference to any other poster, either direct or veiled should be eliminated form these pages. I fail to see how questinoing the sanity of the members of this forum in anyway elevates the tenor or content of this forum. Comments about the mental state of the variuious members are demeaning and should at all costs be avoided. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Dude, it was a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 I know. I actually understood that. Just seems that when others say similar things as that, there are some people that get upset. What I did is I believe correctly called sarcasm or dry humor. I was going to let this run a while and see how many responses such as yours I got. But I decided that the point is made. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 I recommend next time you attempt to use sarcasm or dry humor, you let people know in no uncertain terms what you meant. No point in not being clear and causing someone offense from what you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA45acp Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Im a little late to this (and most everything else). But Kelly.... that really hurts. It is NOT a convenience for your local shooters. It is an example of using "local" rules that are contradictory to the national rules. There is NO SUCH THING as "combined results" under USPSA rules. Any scorekeeper who prints out those results and presents them to shooters is violating the rules and should be fired. Does this mean that since I post Combined results for Coleman GC that you are going to fire me from helping you at the 3gun matches (or is that why you didnt let me help you this year???). Dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted May 19, 2004 Author Share Posted May 19, 2004 What the hell did I start here? Can't we all just get along? I asked a simple question! Let's not go postal or anything here. AND...I will still have the combined scores printed at every match. Thanks, for the explanation guys. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 At the just-completed Area 6 3-Gun Championship (www.uspsa-area6.org), we produced combined results as well as separate by division, without apology and at request of the competitors. Awards were made based on separate divisions, of course, by the rulebook. But there was definite value in knowing that Taran Butler shot Tactical, went minor in pistol, and STILL beat out EVERYONE ELSE on the range, including seven other GM's. 'Meaningless trivia'? Hardly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 i am one of the only few that are with Vince and kelly on this. Combined scoring is stupid. it is completly meaningless. Even if you want to compare your limited score to an open score, that accomplishes nothing.. WOW a B class limited shooter beats a D class open shooter, or a C class open shooter beats a B class production shooter...this is like comparing apples to oranges. you cant compare these scores, even if your limited score is better than somebodys open score, it means NOTHING so why bother?? How do they calculate this anyway?? is it an average of your hit factors??? at a recent match the top open shooter had 518 match points, the top limited shooter had 479, and production had 495 points... i won 5 of six stages against three other production competitors, i had the second most match points out of everybody, but still finished nearly last overall..then some idiot read the overall match results and said "man you got spanked" no matter what i said he didnt believe me that overall scores mean nothing.. yeah i guess i would be nearly last if i were shooting open, but my glock with 10 rounds of minor power 9mm kydex holster and iron sights just isnt a very good open gun. overall match scores is like "tooth fairy match scores" they mean nothing, even if they did exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Harmon, I disagree. If I enter a division that has no or very few other competitors, I really have no way to accurately gauge my progress unless I look at the overall scores --- which don't count for anything, prize wise, but do allow me to see how I compare to the Masters and GMs shooting the match, and to see if I'm improving relative to their performance. (Of course this also means ascertaining whether they shot a good, or significantly above or below average match for them --- usually a question thay'll happily answer locally.) As far as how the overall scores are calculated: The same way as division scores are, except that the divisions are ignored. Highest hit factor gets 100% of stage points, all other hit factors earn their percentage of the HHF in points. And once upon a time there were no divisions..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 I suppose I will take up the cry for true sanity. Combined scores are the correct way to score a match. The winner is the winner and everyone else works off the top dog. If you want to tout "Practical" would you only compete in teh street agains the same type of weapon? Excuse me, I see you have a Production Gun there Mr. Mugger, Pardon whilst I go get my Production Gun. It isn't fair that I have my Limited Gun with me. I have seen more than a few matches where the Limited shooter beat the open shooter on a number of stages. At the local level I have seen A Gm Production Shooter beat a M Open shooter. Especially at the club level where we can actually have to few shooters in any single Division or Class to havea any winners it is a good thing to post the Combined Scores. How would you like to go to a match where 10 people show up to shoot. It takes 3 to make a Class and 5 to make a Division in our Section. So no one wins. No one wins with the combined either since we don't pay that way, but at least you can see how you do against all the rest. Example, an A Limited Shooter and D Limited are the only two that show up in that division. L-10 and Production are full house. Why shouldn't the guys in Limited be able to see where they hypothetically stack up? We have one regular revolver shooter. He wins evey month, he is the only guy there. He compares his scores to the guys in Production just to get an idea. He factors in a few extra seconds to account for the extra reload time. I personally look at the Combined scores to see how well I do against everyone. It is a kick to see your name near the top of the list shooting Limited when a couple really good open shooters are also there. Sort of serves as a stalking horse. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeter Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 you know i don't care about divisions. all i care about is the overall. our club has 35 plus shooters each month and i want to be top dog over everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 With this I will probably step on some toes: Adaptability is lost with age; is the word on the street... Some of the older local guys also still want to stick to the methods of years gone by where all where equal with a Colt at their side.... and want all to be scored in one division to get some distorted "real" picture as to how much better/worse they are than the rest... TIMES CHANGE! WE ARE NOT EQUAL! Declare the division you want to be judged in (according to the rules) and do a FAIR comparison with comparable equipment.... There is a reason why Nascar, Formula 3, Formula 1 and Superbike scores are NOT combined just for fun and info.....(altough I guess some might even have theories on how to do it and why ) The floor is yours..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 DB, No one is really saying, including me, that we should do away with Divisions and go back to Catagories. What I think we are all saying is that regardless of the division we shoot, we all want to know where we stack against the rest. To reiterate my point, I am an A shooter in Limited. Sometimes I win a match, but who was there? If I am the winner of Limited by 20%, I can't really tell how well I shot that day. We have some really good Production L-10 and Open shooters at our clubs. Being able to see where in the overalls I slot in allows me to know how well I really shot. This is not Bullseye, thankfully, there is no perfect score. I can win with a really lousey score if everyone else did worse and I won't know just how bad I was. In a fixed score match like Bullseye, I get 100 10-X whether I am the only one there or if there are 500 people, my score is my score and I need no comparison, here all our scores depend upon the rest of us whether in Divisional scoring or in Combined scoring in order to determine the winner. So again, at the very least at the local level we all like to see where we stack up. It is a stalking horse. It hurts no one and serves the purposes of many. No harm is done, so why not leave it be? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Jim, I know where you are comming from - I feel the same....I just think combo scores aren't the way to go. Locally I'm in the top 5 in the country, continentally I think I'm top 50 (worst case), but how do I know I did well......HIT FACTORS! I chase hit factors, not people...its funny, but the hit factors of the top guys are quite consistant with short, medium and large CoF's....My current aim is a hit factor of 6.5+ on ALL stages I shoot, not just someor most....If I beat the 5.5 mark I go for 7 or 8, etc...Hit factor combines speed and accuracy so I just pick up the latest Euro scores (once they come out) or USPSA/RSA/HK/Auzzie scores,check the hit factors and roughly know what my possie would have been per stage (disregarding extremely diffcult stages - if Eric/Saul/Max/Chris/Max etc score low I bomb out - easy!...) And the above works in any div, all shot the same CoF's so you get a good idea where you are heading...the pictures combo scores however paint are too distorted for a real comparison...the reason they where dropped... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Dead Buff, I think the combo scores do exactly what you are talking about...they compare the hit factors across the various divisions (instead of just in one division). They don't hurt anything. Everybody seems to want to see them. They just need to be presented as a supplement to the official scores (by division), NOT as the only means of scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 DB, I have to agree with Flex. The combination scores area list of all the shooters ranked entirely by HF order. Saves me the trouble of flipping thru multiple sheets. How can the combo scores present a distorted picture while reading across the divisions to see the HHF for a particular stage doesn't? I wll agree that when JJ shows up and shoots Open, i feel pretty good doing 60% with my limited gun. THat having ben said, though I can still look down the list at the HF to see where I stand without having to page through 5 seperate divisions. Saves on paper you know. As to ranking, I am the top ranked shooter in my area (Please note small "a") It all depends upon how large an area you want to define. In this case an unoffical area consisting of the lot lines where my house is built. See I do really have a sense of humor. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Here in Ohio, other than the Circleville results, all local clubs post their matches on the various club web pages as Combined only. The ones who upload the results to the USPSA website are forced to break out the divisions as they should be. It's been very disappointing that most of the clubs here still do not follow USPSA guidelines in regards to scoring and listing local results correctly. It's along the same lines as the stages that require 40 rounds from one position. Oh well............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Yep, I know the "Big fish in small pond" syndrome - the bigger ponds have very much larger fish... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 For what it is worth We post to our own website as follows: Combined scores, Divisonal Overal and Combined Stages. No complaints from the shooters. Anyone wants to see how well they did on a particular stage, look at your HF vs the top HF in your division, do 4 seconds of math and you have the answer. If requested I would send the individual divisional stage results out as well, but that adds 40 pages minimum! 8 Stages and 5 Divisions. That is a lot to wade through. Yes our little local match regularly runs 7-8 stages and a sidematch. We are a bit dememented you could say. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 As the top ranked shooter who lives in my bedroom, I agree that the overall combined scores don't hurt anything, and they are what many people really want to see consolidated in one section. Other than the promptness of getting the scores posted, I get the most positive comments from shooters about getting to see the combined results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 The club I score for has no web page, so the first spot of info for the 35-40 folks who now shoot was off of the USPSA page. After my first scored match a few years ago, I always do the combined and send them via e-mail to the shooters. I didn't get much flack, if any for not doing it the first match, but interestingly enough, was thanked quite profusely the next month when I did do it and send it to the shooters. It's been that way for the last two years now. If you shoot a division where you usually win, either because of the lack of competitors or the skill level of them, what does that tell you about your overall ability? I've enjoyed watching my placement in the "unofficial" results go up as it gives me a better indicator of how I am doing as a shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 I started this sport shooting Limited, and the match I regularly attended is hosted by BE.coms own Lynn Jones. He gives you a combined results and then combined stage results all together where if you want to compare what you are doing against the other Limited shooters all you have to do is look in the "Division" column and find them. Works great, great job Lynn, Now that I am shooting Revolver and am the only one there the Division thing means nothing, I just try to improve or stay the same as the last match with the eventual goal of 60% of the match winner (usually an OPEN Blaster but not always). Another Club that I shoot at lists a combined results and then breaks them out into divisions so all who shoot don't have to compare themselves to other divisions unless they want to. both ways are fine with me, I just want to burn some powder, maybe smoke a N/S or two and have a good time with my shooting buddies, especally when they have a MIKE or can't knock down that one piece of steel. Good luck, shoot straight, shoot fast, look good. SAM KEEN / Hopalong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 We post to our own website as follows: Combined scores, Divisonal Overal and Combined Stages. No complaints from the shooters. ...If requested I would send the individual divisional stage results out as well, but that adds 40 pages minimum! 8 Stages and 5 Divisions. That is a lot to wade through. Yes our little local match regularly runs 7-8 stages and a sidematch. We are a bit dememented you could say. "Demented"? More like "successful", depending on how many competitors you have. We do much the same thing in the GA section. Official rule-satisfying, by-division reporting goes to uspsa.org in the webfile.txt uploads. georgiaipsc.com reporting is usually in the form of overalls by division, combined overall, and combined stages, in .pdf format so people can see listings exactly as they come out of the scoring program. The combined "meaningless trivia" results are expected by competitors, and no competitor has ever written asking for by-division stage results. (They don't have to; those results are on uspsa.org.) For major matches, I will often add by-division stage listings as well to the pdf file, which as Jim notes, pretty much doubles the amount of output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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