Rules and Scoring for 3 Gun

[PistoleroJesse]

I'm all for same devisions, and different scoring.

Then any one can be set up for any competition, but have to study up on the scoring to get the particular emphasis that the MD is going for.

[Chills1994]

just an FYI.....the USPSA pistol rulebook is 100 pages long:

http://www.USPSA.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf

the USPSA multigun rulebook is like 30 pages long:

http://www.USPSA.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf

realistically thinking, should any one multigun match, outlaw or otherwise, have a set of match rules that takes up say more than 5 pages?

[Jesse Tischauser]

yes jesse it has, by MD's that make rules to fit their match, borders and laws have nothing to do with the latest rules.

trapr

Rules to fit their match? What rules have any MD created that ate there simply to "fit a match". You mean safety rules? I'm not sure I follow what your saying. I see the different rule sets and scoring more as a subtle "I'm right , you're wrong" statement. They are not different merely to fit a match. Am I missing something?

Edited October 6, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

realistically thinking, should any one multigun match, outlaw or otherwise, have a set of match rules that takes up say more than 5 pages?

I think this would be very possible.

[b2alphaplease]

One of the best choices is not even listed...USPSA Time-Plus. Probably because no-one knows what it is. I've run several matches with it and it is fast and simple. Sure, call it an adaptation of IMGA. FWIW, I have it on good authority that while there is a provisional 2011 rule set, there is a new set being written that fixes many of the "bad areas" within that ruleset. Spent a good deal of time talking to one of the people working on it and it sure makes sense. What is exceptionally silly is that MG nationals won't be using this ruleset.

The 2011 MG rules are 30 pages, but skip to page 21 where the Time-Plus option is explained: http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2011_Multigun_Rules%2012_15_2010.pdf

I'm going to try this scoring method at the next local 3-G match (in 2 weeks).

It looks much like IMGA with each stage normalized to 100 points.

I'm give an update here afterwards.

One thing I did not notice in the rules is a time out provision. Is there one that I overlooked?

Tim

We tried USPSA MG "Time Plus" scoring last weekend.

Overall it went pretty well, scoring was quick, entering data into EZ-WinScore was simple (but could use a little tweaking).

Then Voila !, the scores popped out with stage winners getting 100 points and everyone else a percentage of the winner.

Still I think a "time out" rule is needed, got to keep the match moving.

The stage I'm referring to had the stage winner at about 70 seconds, while others had 600+ seconds raw time.

EZ-WinScore just scored those as 500 seconds.

Tim

[mingaa]

Okay - this post ( while intersting) is a bit drifty so I'll do the noob wade in. I vowed to shoot multi gun in 2012 - maybe Rolla, MO in the fall. Here's a basic I'm not getting. If one gun is minor is ones whole score minor or is scoring per gun and averaged?

I can bring a glock 34 or 22 (minor, major)

A mossberg 930 - 7+ 1 and Williams sights (major)

And a 223 / 556 AR with a 1-4 scope and canted BUIS Etc. ( minor)

No way I can avoid minor in rifle without laying out big bucks ( for me) or bringing the SKS (haha).

Can someone tell me the short story - I've been doing it the slow way (reading rules) for some time now.

Do two majors and a minor = all minor? The wearing of the dunce cap or- well, what!?

Thanks in advance.

BTW I'm shooting a lot of club IDPA, shotgun and some two gun matches so maybe I'm noob+. Or maybe not!

Edited July 10, 2012 by mingaa

[Benelli Chick]

Okay - this post ( while intersting) is a bit drifty so I'll do the noob wade in. I vowed to shoot multi gun in 2012 - maybe Rolla, MO in the fall. Here's a basic I'm not getting. If one gun is minor is ones whole score minor or is scoring per gun and averaged?

I can bring a glock 34 or 22 (minor, major)

A mossberg 930 - 7+ 1 and Williams sights (major)

And a 223 / 556 AR with a 1-4 scope and canted BUIS Etc. ( minor)

No way I can avoid minor in rifle without laying out big bucks ( for me) or bringing the SKS (haha).

Can someone tell me the short story - I've been doing it the slow way (reading rules) for some time now.

Do two majors and a minor = all minor? The wearing of the dunce cap or- well, what!?

Thanks in advance.

BTW I'm shooting a lot of club IDPA, shotgun and some two gun matches so maybe I'm noob+. Or maybe not!

In USPSA, each gun is scored as it is. 70% of shooters or more shoot minor rifle (.223). You can shoot major shotgun, minor rifle, minor pistol, and each gun is scored minor or major. They use a penalty added thing in the scoring system with points. Long ago, it was called San Angelo Scoring, as a group in San Angelo Texas figured out how to use USPSA scoring for 3-Gun. If it's outlaw, power factor isn't a factor.

In any time plus, power factor isn't scored, but sometimes a bigger pistol or whatever helps with knocking down poppers or what have you!

Denise

[mingaa]

Thanks Denise. I should have asked sooner - not that I'll stop reading the rules and combing results. I'm better with the 34 than the 22 by a bit so that's probably a wash.

Love the San Angelo angle too!

Edited July 10, 2012 by mingaa

[MarkCO]

Okay - this post ( while intersting) is a bit drifty so I'll do the noob wade in. I vowed to shoot multi gun in 2012 - maybe Rolla, MO in the fall. Here's a basic I'm not getting. If one gun is minor is ones whole score minor or is scoring per gun and averaged?

I can bring a glock 34 or 22 (minor, major)

A mossberg 930 - 7+ 1 and Williams sights (major)

And a 223 / 556 AR with a 1-4 scope and canted BUIS Etc. ( minor)

No way I can avoid minor in rifle without laying out big bucks ( for me) or bringing the SKS (haha).

Can someone tell me the short story - I've been doing it the slow way (reading rules) for some time now.

Do two majors and a minor = all minor? The wearing of the dunce cap or- well, what!?

Thanks in advance.

BTW I'm shooting a lot of club IDPA, shotgun and some two gun matches so maybe I'm noob+. Or maybe not!

Every major USPSA match in 2012 used, or will use Time-Plus. While hit-factor is still possible in USPSA, San Angelo is no longer allowed and no one uses it.

Mimimum calibers for IMGA/Outlaw/USPSA is consistent in the three divisions your guns would be suitable for (Open, Scope-Tac, Limited)...9mm for pistol, .223 for rifle and 20 guage for shotgun. Set up the way you described, Scope-Tac is the division you will want. Most people shoot 9mm, .223 and 12 guage in Scope-Tac. Scope-Tac and Tactical are interchangeable depending on which ruleset is used.

[MarkCO]

Still I think a "time out" rule is needed, got to keep the match moving.

The stage I'm referring to had the stage winner at about 70 seconds, while others had 600+ seconds raw time.

EZ-WinScore just scored those as 500 seconds.

Tim

In the newly proposed MG rules:

8.2.3 “Limited Time Comstock”

8.2.3.1 In order for match flow it may be necessary to limit times per shooter on long range rifle stages.

May be used only for Rifle or Multigun stages that have rifle targets set at least 100 yards away.

When the shooter "times out," the stage is scored as shot including any misses and FTE penalties.

The max time is the time recorded.

8.2.3.2 Minimum length of “max time” is 180 seconds on a long course and 30 seconds per string on a

standards course, maximum of 3 strings.

[mingaa]

Okay - this post ( while intersting) is a bit drifty so I'll do the noob wade in. I vowed to shoot multi gun in 2012 - maybe Rolla, MO in the fall. Here's a basic I'm not getting. If one gun is minor is ones whole score minor or is scoring per gun and averaged?

I can bring a glock 34 or 22 (minor, major)

A mossberg 930 - 7+ 1 and Williams sights (major)

And a 223 / 556 AR with a 1-4 scope and canted BUIS Etc. ( minor)

No way I can avoid minor in rifle without laying out big bucks ( for me) or bringing the SKS (haha).

Can someone tell me the short story - I've been doing it the slow way (reading rules) for some time now.

Do two majors and a minor = all minor? The wearing of the dunce cap or- well, what!?

Thanks in advance.

BTW I'm shooting a lot of club IDPA, shotgun and some two gun matches so maybe I'm noob+. Or maybe not!

Every major USPSA match in 2012 used, or will use Time-Plus. While hit-factor is still possible in USPSA, San Angelo is no longer allowed and no one uses it.

Mimimum calibers for IMGA/Outlaw/USPSA is consistent in the three divisions your guns would be suitable for (Open, Scope-Tac, Limited)...9mm for pistol, .223 for rifle and 20 guage for shotgun. Set up the way you described, Scope-Tac is the division you will want. Most people shoot 9mm, .223 and 12 guage in Scope-Tac. Scope-Tac and Tactical are interchangeable depending on which ruleset is used.

The 930 is 12g - major, yes?

I'm not bad with the Glock 22 but shoot the 34 in IDPA a lot.

The AR is a given.

So minor, major, minor or

Major, major, minor - yes? I get time plus. NP.

As a noob it's really a moot point - time to get my feet wet and not embarrass myself ( too much). Tempted to post pics but I'm pretty sure everyone knows the units!

TYVM!

[frag316]

I'd prefer to use USPSA time-plus. It worked at the nationals this year. I'd actually prefer USPSA do away with major/minor hit factor scoring all together.

[StealthyBlagga]

The 930 is 12g - major, yes?

I'm not bad with the Glock 22 but shoot the 34 in IDPA a lot.

The AR is a given.

So minor, major, minor or

Major, major, minor - yes? I get time plus. NP.

As a noob it's really a moot point - time to get my feet wet and not embarrass myself ( too much). Tempted to post pics but I'm pretty sure everyone knows the units!

TYVM!

I suggest you forget about major/minor as the whole concept is becoming irrelevant for 3-gun/multigun. Just find a match and run what ya brung. The guns you have will work just fine - if you are up to it, you could win the match with them.

[Alaskapopo]

I used to not like 2 to neutralize so much but after running (with friends help) the best match we have had I really appreciate how easy it is. The scoring was simple and easy. And it still rewards accuracy if you want to play the take 1 A zone hit and move on game. Which on some stages on close targets I did when it could save me a reload. Count me as one who is converted. One of my officers created program that allows me to enter names and times and it converts it to stage points and ranks people in order of finish and gives match results. Very simple program. I had the scores done really fast.

Pat

Edited July 19, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[frag316]

The 930 is 12g - major, yes?

I'm not bad with the Glock 22 but shoot the 34 in IDPA a lot.

The AR is a given.

So minor, major, minor or

Major, major, minor - yes? I get time plus. NP.

As a noob it's really a moot point - time to get my feet wet and not embarrass myself ( too much). Tempted to post pics but I'm pretty sure everyone knows the units!

TYVM!

I suggest you forget about major/minor as the whole concept is becoming irrelevant for 3-gun/multigun. Just find a match and run what ya brung. The guns you have will work just fine - if you are up to it, you could win the match with them.

To answer your original question, all shotguns are major (in USPSA, at least).

But, I agree with Stealthy--Major/Minor are rapidly becoming irrelevant, as USPSA was (as far as I know) the only scoring system that even cared about it. The proposed rulebook doesn't even have Major/Minor scoring in the main section--it's in Appendix C.

[Alaskapopo]

7.62x39 should be considered major - just sayin

No it should not be major. It is an intermediate cartridge (assault rifle) not a full power cartridge that major was built around (.308)

Pat

[frag316]

7.62x39 should be considered major - just sayin

No it should not be major. It is an intermediate cartridge (assault rifle) not a full power cartridge that major was built around (.308)

Pat

Hold on for just a minute. 7.62x39 is actually .310 or .311, if memory serves (I don't have an AK and don't load this cartridge), so the bullet diameter is larger and the length is shorter (resulting in a lighter bullet).

The real issue is driving the bullet fast enough to make major (320 pf). There are at least a couple of loads that do this (barely).

.30 Gremlin was designed specifically by the AMU for Dan Horner to make major for the USPSA nationals a few years ago. He switched to 300BLK in 2011 (if memory serves) to use the mainline AR parts available (especially in the Army's supply stream). Because he's shooting Tactical, he switched to a 5.56 this year, due to the move away from major/minor scoring.

I think the statement is really tied to whether 7.62x39 should be considered for HEAVY METAL or Heavy Tactical or Heavy Limited. In this case, I agree with Alaska--the divisions are designed around using a true .30 caliber rifle. 7.62x39 doesn't meet this spec. Neither does 300BLK, even tho it uses the same bullet diameter and weights as .308.

[Mike P]

7.62x39 should be considered major - just sayin

No it should not be major. It is an intermediate cartridge (assault rifle) not a full power cartridge that major was built around (.308)

Pat

Hold on for just a minute. 7.62x39 is actually .310 or .311, if memory serves (I don't have an AK and don't load this cartridge), so the bullet diameter is larger and the length is shorter (resulting in a lighter bullet).

The real issue is driving the bullet fast enough to make major (320 pf). There are at least a couple of loads that do this (barely).

.30 Gremlin was designed specifically by the AMU for Dan Horner to make major for the USPSA nationals a few years ago. He switched to 300BLK in 2011 (if memory serves) to use the mainline AR parts available (especially in the Army's supply stream). Because he's shooting Tactical, he switched to a 5.56 this year, due to the move away from major/minor scoring.

I think the statement is really tied to whether 7.62x39 should be considered for HEAVY METAL or Heavy Tactical or Heavy Limited. In this case, I agree with Alaska--the divisions are designed around using a true .30 caliber rifle. 7.62x39 doesn't meet this spec. Neither does 300BLK, even tho it uses the same bullet diameter and weights as .308.

Thresd drift....

IMO major PF for rifle should be at LEAST 360, easy enough to make even out of short RIFLE.