Would IDPA benefit from a compact div?

[Haji]

There's an older gentleman at the local club that shoots his carry gun, a G26. He's been competing for a couple years with that gun-his carry gun-and with his carry holster, an IWB rig. He's about cut his times in half since he started. He's probably never going to win, but that's not why he's competing. He, like many in the club, uses the match as a test of skills to see if there's something that comes up that he can work on when he's practicing. There's nothing wrong with going to the limit of the rules to gain as much advantage as possible, but there's also nothing wrong with using your carry gun and carry gear. Just two different philosophies on competition.

[ThreeHeadedDog]

As far as back-up division is concerned the only change I would like to see is maby some kind of "minor" division. Meaning below 9x19. There are a good number of guns that are sub-caliber that simply cant be shot.

If it were up to me I would add a sub-caliber possiblility(maby a penalty if no additional division is added) and an open possibility.

I know that "open" is heresy to IDPA'ers but my thinking is simply that "open" allows you to shoot other guns without DQ. I own a great deal of guns that cannot be shot in IDPA(including previous carry guns) that I would love to shoot(broom handle anyone). The nice thing about USPSA is that you can shoot any 9mm or higher. For someone just wanting to shoot he can shoot pretty much anything in open(though people complain because they cant be competitive). I think that if you are going to shoot an non-preffered gun that you should be allowed with penalty. Just FYI I think that considering the nature of IDPA an "open" division should still mean no comp/optic.

For example. If IDPA allowed an "open" division I could shoot a 5in barreled Smith model 60. As it stands now I cannot.

[CSEMARTIN]

Would IDPA benefit from a div that specify guns in the same class as a G19?

No. Carry guns have absolutely no place in IDPA competitions.

[Floyd D. Barber]

Sounds interesting. I shot my Glock 26 at the last club match, because it is what I carry most of the time since I bought it a few weeks back.

[KungFuNerd]

What does a typical course look like for BUG?

Sadly Im sure I would instantly start shopping for better compacts....

Competing with my 10+1 Kel-tec P32 would be interesting

Sort of

[Chuckie45]

would IDPA benefit from a div that specify guns in the same class as a G19? guns like the mp9c and g26 come to mind.

Yes. It I think this is a great idea. Especially cense IDPA is geared around self defense. I don't think the BUG (as currently used) is sufficient. There should be a Sub-compact Division. This meets the vision of IDPA and allows competitors that carry sub-compacts to be competitive.

IMHO, I would keep the min caliber at 9mm; max barrel on 3.8" Auto, 3" revolver; and pick a suitable magazine capacity that most Subs can meet; strong side holster; etc.

[KungFuNerd]

So inspired by this thread, I shot my Keltecs the other day working on quick transitions, reloads....

Didn't go well

Sold both KT's and got a G26.

MUCH better.

Would still be interested to hear some typical BUG COF.

Do you Multigun with a BUG (an actual backup to another pistol) or do you just consider it a subcompact?

[IceDevil]

My local club bills one its two monthly IDPA matches as a "compact" match. It's the second match of the month and uses the same course of fire as the first. Participants can choose to shoot non-compact guns but they are scored separately from the compact shooters. At most matches about half of the shooters will choose to shoot "compact" guns so there is clearly interest but this approach means you don't turn away the people who don't want to shoot the compacts. I keep putting "compact" in quotes because the definition is pretty loose. A lot of people end up shooting Glock 19's, which is a uniformed duty weapon for some agencies, but "compact" for these matches. These are definitely not back-up guns and the courses of fire are not watered down like the IDPA BUG rules require. Like most games, whatever rule you create to define "compact", competitors will find the largest and easiest to shoot gun that will fit that definition. That's just human nature.

[Blueridge]

As long as the barrel is 3.8" or less, your gun is perfectly legal in BUG division. That's for an auto pistol, for revolvers it's 3" or less.

Here's the relevant part of the Rule Book:

Handguns permitted for use in this division must:

A. Be single or double action.

B. Be either pistol or revolver.

C. Be .32 auto or larger.

D. Have a barrel length:

1. Semi-automatic, 3.8" or less (factory installed cone style barrels with or without a barrel bushing are permitted).

2. Revolver 3" or less.

E. Maximum (total) number of rounds that may be loaded into the handgun is five (5).

WOW! This means that my Ruger Alaskan (2.5" barrel) would qualify as a BUG as long as I only loaded 5 rounds in it. Cool!

I am just the kind of person to step up and use it in such a match. If for no other reason than to see the look on the other participants faces.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Blueridge

[Steve Koski]

We had a guy shoot his 454 casull of some sort in a BUG match this summer. Why not? He was all smiles.

[KungFuNerd]

What's up with the 5 round limit?

My tiny P32 could do 10+1, P11 could do 12+1 with factory mag and 15+1 extended...G26 does 10+1

[Steve Koski]

Um, to allow 5 shot snubby revolvers to compete fairly.

[KungFuNerd]

Um, to allow 5 shot snubby revolvers to compete fairly.

Ah...just like 'on the street'.

[overunder]

I'm sure you have seen lots of long barreled gun like the g34 and mp pro used in IDPA. I'm sure that there are those that do use them for concealed carry. But I would venture to say that more folks use the g19 and smaller as a carry weapon.

would IDPA benefit from a div that specify guns in the same class as a G19? guns like the mp9c and g26 come to mind.

I would 100% agree with you that a compact div. or even a sub-compact div. would be great for IDPA. I am getting rid of my Glock 35 for that very reason. I would never use it for a carry weapon. I am looking to switch to the Glock 19 or 23 because it is more practical. My carry gun is a XD 9mm Sub-compact. My thought is why am I competing with something I am never going to carry. It makes the whole situation less real.

[Joe4d]

Alot of threads keep hammering on BUG, I dont think this is really what this thread is about. It is about mainstream matches. IDPA likes to say it is about normal defensive guns, somewhere along the line the term "service guns got in there I guess to justify all the full size heavy guns that were required to be truly competitive. I think this is another "say one thing do another" that you seem to find associated with IDPA.

IDPA seems to be alive and well based on the level of participation and that probably keeps leadership defaulting to no change even though the membership has been asking for certain changes for years. However I really think changing the divisions would attract more shooters and allow more guns to be competitive.

1, CDP, call it what it is, a 1911 45 division, doesnt seem any harm in the division as long as the 1911 is protected from better guns by the mag limits. Keep it the same,

2. ESP, keep it the same. the scores just dont justify the need to separating guns based on trigger action. We have striker fired guns winning this division now.

3. SCP ( stock carry pistol) I would use the basic SSP rules with a more liberal internal mod rule, but still a restrictive external mod rule. I dont see the since of having a weight limit and a no heavy guide rod rule. Just make weight which I would lower to 36 oz. Gun must fit in a box measuring 7.75" X 6" X 1 5/8th, basically easily done by addding a 1 inch spacer board along side of current box.

[Steve Koski]

Good thinking Joe. That could maybe make room for ESP Major (or whatever you want to call it). 10+1 in any major caliber.

Koski

[motosapiens]

Alot of threads keep hammering on BUG, I dont think this is really what this thread is about. It is about mainstream matches. IDPA likes to say it is about normal defensive guns, somewhere along the line the term "service guns got in there I guess to justify all the full size heavy guns that were required to be truly competitive. I think this is another "say one thing do another" that you seem to find associated with IDPA.

Take this for what it's worth, from a noob, but one of the things that shooting IDPA for the first time (last spring) made me do was to start carrying a bigger gun that I could shoot more accurately.

I also think many folks might carry a compact, but compete with the full-sized version of that same gun (I do), and so I think the practice and training on the race gun translates over pretty effectively to the carry gun.

I would still welcome a compact division, but in the absence of it I'll have extra respect for the guys that are shooting (and beating me often enough) with their compact carry guns. It's all about fun anyway, and as long as I'm shooting something, and learning at least a little bit, I'm having fun.

[Duane Thomas]

I had the same experience. I used to carry mostly what I call "middleweights," i.e. slightly cutdown versions of larger parent guns, things like the Glock 19 and SIG P228, Then I got into competition shooting, first IDPA then USPSA, and, since I have always been very serious about shooting in competition with my carry gun, one of the effects on me was that I started carrying larger guns. And really, why not? If you look right at it, something like a Glock 17 or a SIG P226 is about the same size as a Lightweight Commander (though admittedly a bit thicker) which was for decades considered a compact, easily portable and concealable carry gun.

[John Z Sr]

Yet another reason we started ZSA, shoot whatever gun you have, no power factor, if there is steel, and it don't fall, too bad, take the penalty and keep smiling. Shoot your little gun in 6 or 8 division, be SAFE and have FUN, imagine, a shooting sport where you don't need to spend all day discussing rules and you get to shoot for fun !!! I love this Country, so many choices !!!