What's an unrealistic non-shooting requirement...

[Jim Norman]

I suppose we are lucky at our club. We have a cadre of designers and our shooter population ranges from U to GM. We try to make all stages achievable but also challenging to everyone. I think that is the answer. Build your stages as if you were building for an Area Match. Don't make them easy. make them fun, there is a difference. You want stages that will prepare you and your shooters for bigger matches.

[steel1212]

I suppose we are lucky at our club. We have a cadre of designers and our shooter population ranges from U to GM. We try to make all stages achievable but also challenging to everyone. I think that is the answer. Build your stages as if you were building for an Area Match. Don't make them easy. make them fun, there is a difference. You want stages that will prepare you and your shooters for bigger matches.

Exactly. If you make them so a c class shooter has a easy time then your not challenging your shooters to become better. Sure they feel good because they didn't have any penalties but who are you hurting.

[Poppa Bear]

That is much of what I was referring to when I modified Wide45's statement. U to C we are challenging shooting ability. B to GM we are challenging stage planning. Look at this video of Max Michel at Area 3

He took a bit of a chance but he figured he could engage all the steel prior to the turners and still get good hits on all the turners. This is planning that takes his abilities. The stage challenges shooters at all abilities but allows the shooter to plan based on their abilities. Each transition between the steel and the turners takes time and time is what determines our HF because many shooters will shoot comparable scores it will be the time it takes to shoot that score that determines the winner.

[shred]

It's been said on similar threads, you have to serve your customers Abilities.

What is good for a level one monthly match with a mix of mostly U to B is not the same as good for a level II or III match with U to GM. You challenge the A and up shooters and they will come back. Make it to easy and it becomes who can literally shoot the quickest. Where is the challenge in that?

The top shooters will always differentiate themselves based on points and time. It could be one target at two yards, it could be a Texas star at 200 yards. While neither is what I'd call 'fun', which is new-shooter friendly?

Challenge the shooters (and please skip the arms-length hose-fests), but keep it so everybody can shoot it and everybody has fun.

[joseywales]

...Build your stages as if you were building for an Area Match. Don't make them easy. make them fun, there is a difference. You want stages that will prepare you and your shooters for bigger matches.

BINGO!

[Steven Cline]

Stage 1 "Duelling Mathematicians"

Start Position: Seated at table, pen in strong hand, weak hand holding down stack of paper.

On Signal, compute the 37th Fibonacci number, then draw and engage T1 with two rounds only.

RO notes: Shooter must write each calculation completely. Incorrect results or missed steps will incur one procedural penalty each. T1 is set on the other side of the card table.

Exactly my point. While we aren't this bad yet, the slippery slope? If we had a black and white standarized rules- clear indication of when the non-shooting challenge becomes unrealistic- we might be in a better place.

[Steven Cline]

This got me thinking now... Would you consider the below an unrealistic non-shooting component.

Typical back and forth with shoot box up through the center... and barrel covered targets that uncover going further downrange... except the shoot box consist of railroad ties that zigzag down the COF.

WSB, engage targets as they become available from on top of the railroad ties. Stepping off of the railroad tie will incur one procedural per step.

ETA - this was an incredibly fun and deceptively hard stage to shoot.

Wouldn't this test balance instead of shooting skill? How reasonable is this? How bizarre of a scenario do you have to imagine for this to manifest in reality? Does than then mean it doesn't meet the definition of reasonable?

[Skydiver]

No procedural for stepping off, but procedurals for shooting when not on the platform:

Jump to 55 seconds if clicking on the image below:

Edited August 29, 2011 by Skydiver

[lawboy]

The best way to "Sell" stage designers and match directors on not having excessive non-shooting challenges is to point out the amount of wasted time that is added to the match. If you have a funky start that adds 10 seconds of non-shooting activities to the stage run it all adds up because every shooter has to do it. Not only in actual shooting time but delayed stage planning time as well. For example a funky non-shooting activity could force a shooter to take an extra 30 seconds to rehearse the activity right before running the stage. You get a 50+ shooter match that all waste an combined time of 60 seconds (While shooting the stage and while trying to rehearse it before shooting) on the funky non-shooting activity that is an extra hour added to the match day.

Excellent point. I didn't consider, that. The thread has been sucessful twice already; let's see how much good information we can get out of the discussion.

I shot the match. I shot L10 so I had to stash four magazines. There were limited shooters whose runs were 50% of my time! Still, I think it was a valid stage and the run to the prop barrel and then to the left or right shooting location was only 5-6 steps. No big deal.

Here I am stinking up the stage.

Edited August 30, 2011 by lawboy

[ima45dv8]

I shot the match. I shot L10 so I had to stash four magazines. There were limited shooters whose runs were 50% of my time! Still, I think it was a valid stage and the run to the prop barrel and then to the left or right shooting location was only 5-6 steps. No big deal.

Here I am stinking up the stage.

I'm not a big fan of loading mag pouches on-the-clock, but you seemed to do pretty well at it.

As for how you fared against the Limited shooters, does that really matter? I know we all like to see the Combined Overall results, but really you're only competing against other Lim10 shooters.

What was the hang-up you had in the fifth port? You fired two rounds and then went into what seemed an Immediate Action Drill.

[lawboy]

I shot the match. I shot L10 so I had to stash four magazines. There were limited shooters whose runs were 50% of my time! Still, I think it was a valid stage and the run to the prop barrel and then to the left or right shooting location was only 5-6 steps. No big deal.

Here I am stinking up the stage.

I'm not a big fan of loading mag pouches on-the-clock, but you seemed to do pretty well at it.

As for how you fared against the Limited shooters, does that really matter? I know we all like to see the Combined Overall results, but really you're only competing against other Lim10 shooters.

What was the hang-up you had in the fifth port? You fired two rounds and then went into what seemed an Immediate Action Drill.

Thanks for the kind words.

No, it does not matter in the least what the limited shooters did! I tell people the same thing all the time.

fired second shot, pressed trigger, nothing happened. Looked at gun, hammer was forward. Manually cocked hammer, gun fired! This is a custom Les Baer PMII. So, apparently, gun fired, cycled but hammer followed and did not double ... Could not replicate it to save my life after the match. Shot another match yesterday with no problem. Not sure what happened.

[ima45dv8]

I shot the match. I shot L10 so I had to stash four magazines. There were limited shooters whose runs were 50% of my time! Still, I think it was a valid stage and the run to the prop barrel and then to the left or right shooting location was only 5-6 steps. No big deal.

Here I am stinking up the stage.

I'm not a big fan of loading mag pouches on-the-clock, but you seemed to do pretty well at it.

As for how you fared against the Limited shooters, does that really matter? I know we all like to see the Combined Overall results, but really you're only competing against other Lim10 shooters.

What was the hang-up you had in the fifth port? You fired two rounds and then went into what seemed an Immediate Action Drill.

Thanks for the kind words.

No, it does not matter in the least what the limited shooters did! I tell people the same thing all the time.

fired second shot, pressed trigger, nothing happened. Looked at gun, hammer was forward. Manually cocked hammer, gun fired! This is a custom Les Baer PMII. So, apparently, gun fired, cycled but hammer followed and did not double ... Could not replicate it to save my life after the match. Shot another match yesterday with no problem. Not sure what happened.

:roflol:

Yeah, I don't care what you and I say in print here, but every limited-capacity division shooter loves to see where we placed Overall!

It doesn't happen as much as I'd like, but we all like to see ourselves beating some/any Open blaster! (their guns do all the work for them, if you didn't know!)

:roflol:

I lit off an extra round yesterday (Sunday) by riding the reset a little close during my second stage. It didn't happen again in the next four stages so I hope that's all it was.

However, a hammer that follows is a bit more serious. It could go rock-n-roll on you at any minute. It's not to be taken lightly. Have it checked as soon as possible.

See these tips to do preliminary checks yourself (the third one might be the most suitable for issues). If no firm resolution, find a good gunsmith.

http://www.brazoscustom.com/Home.htm

Look under "Magazine Articles", (on the left panel), then "Safety Check (07/2008)".

[lawboy]

I shot the match. I shot L10 so I had to stash four magazines. There were limited shooters whose runs were 50% of my time! Still, I think it was a valid stage and the run to the prop barrel and then to the left or right shooting location was only 5-6 steps. No big deal.

Here I am stinking up the stage.

I'm not a big fan of loading mag pouches on-the-clock, but you seemed to do pretty well at it.

As for how you fared against the Limited shooters, does that really matter? I know we all like to see the Combined Overall results, but really you're only competing against other Lim10 shooters.

What was the hang-up you had in the fifth port? You fired two rounds and then went into what seemed an Immediate Action Drill.

Thanks for the kind words.

No, it does not matter in the least what the limited shooters did! I tell people the same thing all the time.

fired second shot, pressed trigger, nothing happened. Looked at gun, hammer was forward. Manually cocked hammer, gun fired! This is a custom Les Baer PMII. So, apparently, gun fired, cycled but hammer followed and did not double ... Could not replicate it to save my life after the match. Shot another match yesterday with no problem. Not sure what happened.

:roflol:

Yeah, I don't care what you and I say in print here, but every limited-capacity division shooter loves to see where we placed Overall!

It doesn't happen as much as I'd like, but we all like to see ourselves beating some/any Open blaster! (their guns do all the work for them, if you didn't know!)

:roflol:

I lit off an extra round yesterday (Sunday) by riding the reset a little close during my second stage. It didn't happen again in the next four stages so I hope that's all it was.

However, a hammer that follows is a bit more serious. It could go rock-n-roll on you at any minute. It's not to be taken lightly. Have it checked as soon as possible.

See these tips to do preliminary checks yourself (the third one might be the most suitable for issues). If no firm resolution, find a good gunsmith.

http://www.brazoscustom.com/Home.htm

Look under "Magazine Articles", (on the left panel), then "Safety Check (07/2008)".

Just read it and will do the checks tonight at home, especially checking the half cock notch. Thanks!

[West Texas Granny]

As for after having loaded up, it was the shooter's choice to go to the first shooting location that was another 10 yds away. I'm assuming that there were other closer options, but less attractive in terms of how well the stage would "flow".

You are correct; the shooter could have gotten to targets sooner, say 3 yards, but still went about 10 yards to one side or the other and then would have have to sprint to cover that same distance plus some to get to the remaining targets.

The observation was made (during my CRO class), that "it's not supposed to be a foot race."

No matter how you shot the stage, there was still that 10 yard or so sprint which was about how fast you can accelerate, maintiain, and slow instead of the recommend max distance of 10' between shooting positions.

Excellent observation- it will generate additional discussion.

But that is just what it is. A foot race with tricked out guns with the majority focus on how fast one can run and to make it easier minor A zone hits are the same as major a zone hits.

[Flexmoney]

Maybe the question needs to be...

"what is the process to appeal the legality of a stage that ones feels is in violation of 1.1.x?"

[Schutzenmeister]

Maybe the question needs to be...

"what is the process to appeal the legality of a stage that ones feels is in violation of 1.1.x?"

Same as any other appeal ... RO - CRO - RM. If the RM turns you down, fill out an arb and pay your fee. This applies to not only 1.1.x, but also 2.1.x, or any other rule in the book unless it specifically states the RM's decision is final. (e.g., 9.6.6) Note ... Once the match has begun, the RM is in charge of most everything rules related. (7.1.6)

[Skydiver]

11.1.2 says that a course can be challenged by a competitor as long as the challenge is made before the competitor shoots the stage.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Skydiver