A3 DQ

[fishhunter3]

Got mt first DQ today, started shooting this game back in 1984 (took s few years off in there) and have shoot a few majors over the years,I just thinking to far ahead and over ran some targets and swung back to engage as I backed up and broke the 180. the second I did it I knew. I think the RO was more upset about DQ'ing me than I was. told him after that I would have and have done it as an RO before. All I could do was thank him for doing a good job and leave. now I'm sitting in the hotel in the AC and drinking a cold one, wishing I was shooting but not to broke up about it,So now I'll have to spend the day in Bass Pro tomorrow and I know that's going to cost me a lot,

[sirveyr]

Sorry to hear that, Larry. They always say it's not "if", but "when" you DQ. Didn't you stay and finish the match with your squad?

[GrumpyOne]

Why don't you go back and help out? Just a suggestion.....

[Joe4d]

Very sorry you DQ'd, but thank you very much for being a sportsman about it, only thing worse for an RO than issuing the DQ, is to have the shooter throw a childish temper tantrum.

[foilhat]

I got my first one today at A3, stayed to watch the squad. Now I'm doing the same thing.

[Snowgun]

I got my first one today at A3, stayed to watch the squad. Now I'm doing the same thing.

I believe one out of 10 shooters got DQ'ed at A3, including Mr Hornady himself. Impressive. One guy broke the 180 twice on one run. I guess people were a little to amped up.

[LocknLoad]

I didn't shoot the match, but I live in the area and work as a volunteer at that range and came out to watch on Saturday. Ton of DQs during the matches, which really surprised me.

[blaster113]

that saying about those who have DQ'd and those who will is so true. Got mine earlier this year at a local match. there were 14 guys DQ'd at this past Open nationals

[Maksim]

How far did you go to get to the match?

First nationals match, the l10/open/revo one, I believe 20 shooters total got the DQ. In particular one stage, where if you leave the port too hot, you broke the 180.

As an RO, even though I know I am just the bearer of bad news, the shooter DQ'ed himself, still tough.

I know at Area 8, some people were reallly close, so after they shot, pulled them aside to let them know, and most are greatful as they don't realize it. I only had one shooter throw a tantrum, but the moron should not of popped the gun out of the holster before the "Make Ready" command, and especially not while facing uprange.

[Mokken]

It's surprising though how many people will argue a DQ, seen it before.

[Skydiver]

Ever been to traffic court with people fighting speeding and parking tickets?

[sirveyr]

It's surprising though how many people will argue a DQ, seen it before.

Sometimes DQ calls are subjective. If you feel that the call was truly wrong, there is nothing wrong with questioning the call. Just don't be a dick about it.

[ErichF]

I'm new at this, but what does it say about the stage design if 10% of the shooters, very experienced included, are DQ'd for safety issues? Sounds like an unsafe or at the very least, a borderline unsafe stage design. Or, do matches of this level just breed a higher sense of competitiveness that makes otherwise very safe folks do unsafe things?

[digby7]

agreed on that last part about unsafe stage design. Last match I was at we had barriers and targets at 90 degrees. The RO told me afterwards that I got close to a 180 and a DQ - prior to that, my way of thinking is that if theres a berm 90 degrees to the side of you as well as forward and the target is in front of the sideways berm, that is down range as well. turns out those targets are at 180 degrees already if theres a narrow port you have to shoot through.

I'll know now in the future but I don't like that kind of stage design

[FJR05]

ErichF did you shoot the A3 match? If not, then you're just crunching numbers.

I shot and worked the match...The stages weren't unsafe or "borderline". They did give you enough rope that you could hang YOURSELF! Targets were open and if you ran past and turned... Most stages if you pushed it too much, they could cost you, just like any other match. Alot of the DQ's were for AD's. How does that equate to unsafe course design?

[digby7]

 ^
|  |
|  |
|  |
|  |
|  |-----
|   _ _   >   
|  |
|  ||  |

so if I have a course setup like this where the inside of the bracket is the target is this "unsafe" or "just enough rope to hang yourself with"?

shooting it requires you to be at 178/180 degrees anyways if down range is only considered where the top ^ is.

[Carmoney]

ErichF did you shoot the A3 match? If not, then you're just crunching numbers.

I shot and worked the match...The stages weren't unsafe or "borderline". They did give you enough rope that you could hang YOURSELF! Targets were open and if you ran past and turned... Most stages if you pushed it too much, they could cost you, just like any other match. Alot of the DQ's were for AD's. How does that equate to unsafe course design?

I completely agree. I shoot a lot of big matches all over the country, and I can tell you there was nothing crazy about this year's Area 3, and that includes stage design and the officiating of the match. It was a good match. As long as you maintained proper control and followed the rules, there was absolutely no problem. The DQs were not all centered around one stage or even one safety issue--they were literally across the board.

[ErichF]

ErichF did you shoot the A3 match? If not, then you're just crunching numbers.

I shot and worked the match...The stages weren't unsafe or "borderline". They did give you enough rope that you could hang YOURSELF! Targets were open and if you ran past and turned... Most stages if you pushed it too much, they could cost you, just like any other match. Alot of the DQ's were for AD's. How does that equate to unsafe course design?

I completely agree. I shoot a lot of big matches all over the country, and I can tell you there was nothing crazy about this year's Area 3, and that includes stage design and the officiating of the match. It was a good match. As long as you maintained proper control and followed the rules, there was absolutely no problem. The DQs were not all centered around one stage or even one safety issue--they were literally across the board.

Hey, flame me all you want - I qualified my comments with the fact I am new at this...so don't take my comments as if I was stating anything WAS unsafe. From my un-educated eye, there is an APPEARANCE of a safety issue. The reason I ask is for someone experienced to convince me that everything was indeed safe. That, in fact, it's just part of the game. I can understand that. You will find that I often play devil's advocate in an attempt to gain knowledge. It doesn't mean I'm arguing.

[bofe954]

I don't think he's flaming you.

It's hard to say whether the number of DQ's is a reflection of course design or not unless you really look at a lot of data. There are other threads on this particular match and how people DQ'd.

The guy on my squad who DQ'd, had ammo at the safe table. The other guy I heard of DQ'ing that day forgot to drop his mag while unloading and showing clear, chambered a round after showing clear and...bang. Clearly not stage design.

Big matches attract new shooters and experienced guys. When you shoot a local match it is 20-50 guys and you have an occasional DQ (and a few that probably deserve it but get let go). Now how many DQ's do you expect when 300+ show up? Plus a lot of people push hard at big matches and make more mistakes than usual.

[ErichF]

I don't think he's flaming you.

It's hard to say whether the number of DQ's is a reflection of course design or not unless you really look at a lot of data. There are other threads on this particular match and how people DQ'd.

The guy on my squad who DQ'd, had ammo at the safe table. The other guy I heard of DQ'ing that day forgot to drop his mag while unloading and showing clear, chambered a round after showing clear and...bang. Clearly not stage design.

Big matches attract new shooters and experienced guys. When you shoot a local match it is 20-50 guys and you have an occasional DQ (and a few that probably deserve it but get let go). Now how many DQ's do you expect when 300+ show up? Plus a lot of people push hard at big matches and make more mistakes than usual.

Yep, understand perfectly. There's a lot left to "the law of averages" there. Interesting story about the DQ from the "cleared" weapon that went bang...did the RO actually look in the action? My understanding is that the RO looks in the action to verify chamber is empty, and that the action is clear (no cartridge, no mag). Purely the responsibility of the shooter, but what really is the accountability of the RO in a "hammer down" discharge?

As a pilot, I tend to look at the environmental circumstances that lead to mishaps in just about everything. I have been a study of aviation accidents over the years in an effort to avoid the same fate of my departed peers. I expect to have the same attitude in my journey into shooting sports and competition. I want to learn from the mistakes of others, because I won't live long enough to make them all myself.

[ihatepickles]

Purely the responsibility of the shooter, but what really is the accountability of the RO in a "hammer down" discharge?

The RO says "if clear, hammer down, and holster". Every RO I've worked with tries hard to catch these mistakes before they happen, but as you said it's the shooters responsibility. In other words, I don't think any RO would allow a shooter to drop the hammer on the live round if they saw it.

[Poppa Bear]

Purely the responsibility of the shooter, but what really is the accountability of the RO in a "hammer down" discharge?

The RO says "if clear, hammer down, and holster". Every RO I've worked with tries hard to catch these mistakes before they happen, but as you said it's the shooters responsibility. In other words, I don't think any RO would allow a shooter to drop the hammer on the live round if they saw it.

I've caught a few and been caught once or twice with this. Something distracts you as you finish the course so your head is not 100% into the "If you are finished" so you rack the slide without dropping the mag. The RO should be watching so they should be able to stop you before you "Hammer down", but sometimes you are on autopilot so you move directly from one to the other and "BANG".

I was not there but I know the OP who was. Pure and simple he out ran the gun because some of the stages were so wide open that you could run quicker than you could shoot.

Most stages I have shot that have potential to break the 180 the CRO/ RO point out the forward limits that they will be judging by "If you engage target X while forward of this point, you will have broken the 180. You will be DQ'ed" Usually when I air gun the target from that point you are closer to 185 so there is no doubt you broke the 180.

[Carmoney]

The reason I ask is for someone experienced to convince me that everything was indeed safe. That, in fact, it's just part of the game. I can understand that.

Glad I could help you out with that.

Oh.....and welcome to USPSA.

[Skydiver]

I don't think he's flaming you.

It's hard to say whether the number of DQ's is a reflection of course design or not unless you really look at a lot of data. There are other threads on this particular match and how people DQ'd.

The guy on my squad who DQ'd, had ammo at the safe table. The other guy I heard of DQ'ing that day forgot to drop his mag while unloading and showing clear, chambered a round after showing clear and...bang. Clearly not stage design.

Big matches attract new shooters and experienced guys. When you shoot a local match it is 20-50 guys and you have an occasional DQ (and a few that probably deserve it but get let go). Now how many DQ's do you expect when 300+ show up? Plus a lot of people push hard at big matches and make more mistakes than usual.

As mentioned in the other thread, by somebody with a lot of experiences from major matches over the years and had been "crunching the numbers", a typical DQ rate for a big match is 3-5%. What was atypical was the 10% rate for that particular match.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

 ^
|  |
|  |
|  |
|  |
|  |-----
|   _ _   >   
|  |
|  ||  |

so if I have a course setup like this where the inside of the bracket is the target is this "unsafe" or "just enough rope to hang yourself with"?

shooting it requires you to be at 178/180 degrees anyways if down range is only considered where the top ^ is.

For a right handed shooter, approaching this target presentation could be a challenge if encountered for the first time and the shooter never practiced this before. This is much easier for a left handed shooter. The trick is not to crowd the corner and remember "do not get sucked into the port".

Edited October 14, 2011 by Skydiver