wackodacko Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Hi Guys, I had a para p14-45 LS which i converted to 40 because of the round count advantage. I did this by using a 6" barrel from a prize table, but had difficulty sourcing a 6" slide so i bought a 5" Caspian. Here is a picture of what it looks like. Is this legal in USPSA Limited Division? They were ok with it at Area 1 match, but another shooter told me that depending on the mood of the RO, they may or may not accept the gun as legal in Limited class. i looked in the rule book regarding barrels but its rather vague. In Limited Division Appendix D2 - Replacement barrels: provided they are the same LENGTH as original factory standard. Technically the length is the same, but not the caliber. I also modified my frame to a long dust cover, ala STI but i dont think that matters, i'm more concerned about the barrel length. I'm shooting an area and section match pretty soon. THanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Appendix D2 - Replacement barrels: provided they are the same LENGTH as original factory standard. Technically the length is the same, but not the caliber. If you removed a 5" and replaced it with a 6", how is the length the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 If you removed a 5" and replaced it with a 6", how is the length the same? I think his original 14-45 was a 6". He didn't say, but that's what it sounds like. He replace the 6" slide with a 5" slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackodacko Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 If you removed a 5" and replaced it with a 6", how is the length the same? I think his original 14-45 was a 6". He didn't say, but that's what it sounds like. He replace the 6" slide with a 5" slide. Yes - the original was a 45 caliber 6" (this is para ord's LS version) I changed it to a 40 caliber 6" (same length as factory - different caliber) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 been way more than enough 6" barrels made to meet requirements, and enough 5" slides. Nothing says you cant mix and match. There have been 500 6" barrels made, and 500 5" slides, so I say good to go, However the issue is the lower. Thats a prototype frame, there (to my knowledge )are not 500 Para style long dustcover frames available to the general public. Unless Springfield or SPS has made some, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackodacko Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 thanks Joe. its not a prototype frame, its a standard Para frame available to the general public- my husband tig-welded it to make it have a long dust cover. Nothing in the book says you can't add stuff to the frame? What about those gunsmiths that put holes in the slides to make it lighter - they dont do 500 of those but its legal, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) thanks Joe. its not a prototype frame, its a standard Para frame available to the general public- my husband tig-welded it to make it have a long dust cover. Nothing in the book says you can't add stuff to the frame? What about those gunsmiths that put holes in the slides to make it lighter - they dont do 500 of those but its legal, right? When I last asked about a possible mod to put on the frame, JA's opinion was that it maybe considered a "weight", but he'd have to see a picture to confirm. I didn't pursue the matter. D2.22 Prohibited Modifications External modifications or features such as weights or devices to control or reduce recoil (such as but not limited to thumb rests or components which could be used as such). But as I've mentioned in the past, people add heavy magwells to their gun. Ostensibly the magwell is to aid reloading, but the extra mass of the magwell also helps reduce recoil. People seem to avoid expressing an opinion about the matter. Edited July 29, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackodacko Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 I guess i'll just ask the RM before using it. by the way, who is "JA"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I inquired before about something like that, I was told it was a no go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Matt, If there is a legal 6" configuration, why can't you just lighten the slide from the muzzle end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Matt, If there is a legal 6" configuration, why can't you just lighten the slide from the muzzle end? Ask Amidon. I think the words he used was something like "prototype configuration" or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I guess i'll just ask the RM before using it. by the way, who is "JA"? John Amidon, DNROI (Director, National Range Officers Institute) Contact information: Vice President/NROI Director John Amidon dnroi@uspsa.org vp@uspsa.org He's the best contact for a clear answer on whether this configuration is allowable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvhendrix Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 If I am not mistaken several years ago. A well known gunsmith added mass to the dust cover of a Caspian Hi-capacity Limited gun and several folks at the Nationals got moved to Open division. It was considered a recoil control device and not "as manufactured" by Caspian. Best I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 If I am not mistaken several years ago. A well known gunsmith added mass to the dust cover of a Caspian Hi-capacity Limited gun and several folks at the Nationals got moved to Open division. It was considered a recoil control device and not "as manufactured" by Caspian. Best I remember. The smith asked if an extended dust cover was a legal mod, and was told yes. The frames he built had a very heavy weight welded on in place of the dust cover. The guns were disallowed under the no external weights or devises to control recoil rule. The smith sued USPSA. I expect USPSA is still gunshy on the subject of modifying the dust cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I was referring to the slide not the frame. Lightening is allowed under the rules, shortening the slide is one way to lighten it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I dont see an issue with the top end, its the frame I would call a prototype and not 500 available to the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackodacko Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 ok i'll email John.... thanks. I agree with Skydiver... some people add heavy magwells, full length and tungsten guiderods, etc to add weight and reduce recoil. its not like a full length dust cover is something new. i'm not attaching an electromagnetic recoil stabilizing super jet fighter gyroscopic dampened prototype on my firearm.. this is just my husband's cheapskate attempt to make it look like an STI i'll update this thread if JA replies to my email... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackodacko Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 Hi Guys, just an update to close the thread... JA replied that it is NOT LEGAL for me to use a 6" barrel with 5" slide configuration. Although each part separately is legal, when you combine it, it becomes "prototypish" because there is currently no gun configured this way that has come out of the factory in quantities of 500+ and for which NROI has approved the design of. To make my setup legal, he said I'd have to change my 6" to a 5" barrel. Having the long dust cover is not an issue, as there are 500+ guns with 5" barrel and 5" slide and long dust cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 (edited) I just love this stuff. So if I had a 6" slide on a regular 5" frame, but cut back the slide 1/8" during the build to true it up or whatnot, it would now be illegal? Or, at what point does a longer barrel sticking out of a 5" barrel become too long? Some bull barrels stick out a full quarter inch past the slide, others are flush.... Is it defined? Or we'll just "know it when we see it"? Not to mention, it used to be kind of popular for people to put 6" (or longer) barrels in their old 1911s... saw them all the time at gunshows. I'd wager that there are far in excess of 500 5" 1911's with 6" barrels, floating around. Not on widebody frames though. Edited August 1, 2011 by sfinney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) I seriously dont agree with that ruling, nothing in the rules says it has to be a complete gun, the rule says, Or parts, There are tons of different congigurations of 1911/2011, and I bet by the time you do a parts bulid no way you could prove if there was a factory gun built in that complete configuration, By that logic all Caspian framed widebody limited guns are now illegal as there have Never been complete guns made in any configuration. Looks like its the ol, If you're a somebody the parts rule applies,,,, "6 inch .40 paras" if your a nobody has to be a whole gun, "STI sighttracker" The BOD needs to address inconsistent rulings like this. Specific case in point, It was perfectly ok for a "somebody" to put a 6" .40 top end on a para because lots of 6" barrels and slides, even though Para at the time had never done it, and still have only done it in 45. It was ruled illegal for a "nobody" to put a Sighttracker top end on any frame but an S_I or any caliber but .40 because thats the only way the 500 complete guns were made. Nothing against that somebody who had nothing to do with the ruling. Its just looks like bias when equipment rulings are made based on your class and sponsorship status. Edited August 2, 2011 by Joe4d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 This is why Limited should be "No optics and no ports. 6" barrel length, maximum." Add your favorite length of magazine and they you go. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Yet another Amidon ruling that makes things more subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 How is the lock up at the muzzle. Most barrels have a reduced diameter .75-1.00" behind the muzzle. The easy fix, since this was a free barrel, is to cut it off. Hacksaw works, then clean it up with files. You were looking for a .40, not necessarily a 6" .40. You could even turn it down and use a bushing if the lock up is loose. See my avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I cut a 6" Schuemann bull barrel to 5" with a hacksaw (and the slide too, like in your avatar!), and it worked great. I had a friend crown the barrel and recut the sight dovetail in the slide when it was done, and rattle canned it black again. Must be something about guys named Shaun (even spelled the same). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 the purpose of the 500 rule is so one guy cant show up with gear another cant get. I can get a 6" barrel, I can get a 5" side, show me where I and 498 others can buy a steel framed long dust cover gun ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now