BlueOvalBruin Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Premium parts are expensive though (schuemann barrels, egw or C&S fire control parts, machined barstock thumb safety and slide stop, SV slides, etc.). Then start adding things like checkering and the price goes up even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
818-DVC Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 If a custom 2011 costs $3k, a single stack 1911 should be about $2800, or $200 less as the frame is that much less money. its the only difference. If you buy a used Mil Spec for $400 or less and have it customized you may save a few bucks. I did the work myself with the help of Gene Shuey with the AGI videos, and my local amateur gunsmith who had all the tools. It brought great self satisfaction, and led me to purchase the tools I did not have to fix, customize, or build all my 1911's JL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 That's a nice checkering job on the frontstrap! Thanks, it looks better in person. The pistol cost 1700, but the camera was free for buying a printer. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911vm Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I think there's a big difference between a true custom and and a gun that looks really good ,very accurate and reliable . my customer has 11k+ rounds through it and is still just as accurate,reliable and tight as it was the first day . modifying an 800 dollar gun will not give you the longevity . just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Baer is not custom...it's in the realm of "semi-custom." Having seen the feature on Shooting USA and watched how they build the 1911s in Baer's shop, I sorta disagree. They really are custom guns (everything is hand-fit and even the checkering is cut by hand)--the only difference is they are built by a number of sets of hands, instead of just one person. Baer has figured out efficiencies that allow him to keep the price pretty reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I think there's a big difference between a true custom and and a gun that looks really good ,very accurate and reliable . my customer has 11k+ rounds through it and is still just as accurate,reliable and tight as it was the first day . modifying an 800 dollar gun will not give you the longevity . just my 2 cents 11k+ rounds? We have people here that put 11k+ rounds through a pistol in a matter of weeks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) I think there's a big difference between a true custom and and a gun that looks really good ,very accurate and reliable . my customer has 11k+ rounds through it and is still just as accurate,reliable and tight as it was the first day . modifying an 800 dollar gun will not give you the longevity . just my 2 cents Springfield Armory has been making 1911's a very long time. 11,000 is not that many rounds I think my gun wil be shooting for a long time. Edited July 27, 2011 by usmc1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 If a custom 2011 costs $3k, a single stack 1911 should be about $2800, or $200 less as the frame is that much less money. its the only difference. If you buy a used Mil Spec for $400 or less and have it customized you may save a few bucks. I did the work myself with the help of Gene Shuey with the AGI videos, and my local amateur gunsmith who had all the tools. It brought great self satisfaction, and led me to purchase the tools I did not have to fix, customize, or build all my 1911's JL I've been told that building a 1911 requires more hand work than building a 2011, and as a result costs more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I've been told that building a 1911 requires more hand work than building a 2011, and as a result costs more. I've built both, and the only difference I can think of that would be more work on the 1911 would be checkering the frontstrap and beveling the mag well opening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911vm Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) I think there's a big difference between a true custom and and a gun that looks really good ,very accurate and reliable . my customer has 11k+ rounds through it and is still just as accurate,reliable and tight as it was the first day . modifying an 800 dollar gun will not give you the longevity . just my 2 cents Springfield Armory has been making 1911's a very long time. 11,000 is not that many rounds I think my gun wil be shooting for a long time. I never said that 11k is a lot . I also have a SA and I agree it will run for a lot longer. And run well. What I am saying is a custom-built gun will last even longer. I can see the difference between the two. As far as fit of the frame for example . I probably have 27k in it. But there is definitely a difference between them at 11k. I am sure that my 11 year old son will be running the custom much longer after I am no longer able . Ps. Find a friend that has both, close your eyes and pick one up at a time. Edited July 27, 2011 by 1911vm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleforte78 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I got into a custom tuned Springfield Range Officer for $1250. I'm a very green Single Stack shooter but this gun is a real sweetie. Checkering, magwell, finishing, etc. $3K is alot of bread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Baer is not custom...it's in the realm of "semi-custom." Having seen the feature on Shooting USA and watched how they build the 1911s in Baer's shop, I sorta disagree. They really are custom guns (everything is hand-fit and even the checkering is cut by hand)--the only difference is they are built by a number of sets of hands, instead of just one person. Baer has figured out efficiencies that allow him to keep the price pretty reasonable. And that's your opinion. The general consensus in the "1911 world" that I've found is that custom is built for a specific individual, typically by one master gunsmith. Baer, Brown, RRA, Wilson, Nighthawk, Guncrafter, etc. are all considered semi-customs. Now, many features, finishes, etc. are arguably the same. The difference IMO isn't that big, but I have a "built up" custom, not a full-house build, which is entirely different. IMO, custom 1911's are ones that are built in the hands of masters, such as: Harrison, Yost, Bailey, Burton, Rodgers, Rogers, Erickson, Joe C, Williams, Chen, CT Brian, Christiansen, Morris, etc. etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I've been told that building a 1911 requires more hand work than building a 2011, and as a result costs more. I've built both, and the only difference I can think of that would be more work on the 1911 would be checkering the frontstrap and beveling the mag well opening. Add the checkering, undercutting, fitting of all the parts that have to be fit to a metal frame and the SS ends up being a couple hundred more. I think the last gun I had built the parts cost 1400$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
818-DVC Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Depends on the frame specs. An STI frame needs more fitting than say a TRI or SV frame. It also depends on whether or not you are doing the work on a mill or hand lapping, and if course frame material hardness. As far as rebuilding an old 1911 goes, I can make a 20 year old rattle trap tighter than it ever came from the factory & hum like new. You can do a lot of functional & cosmetic custom work using a lot of the factory parts, and a few modern new components as well. If you have a mill and are a little artistic, you can polish a turd into a functional, reliable masterpiece. If a custom 2011 costs $3k, a single stack 1911 should be about $2800, or $200 less as the frame is that much less money. its the only difference. If you buy a used Mil Spec for $400 or less and have it customized you may save a few bucks. I did the work myself with the help of Gene Shuey with the AGI videos, and my local amateur gunsmith who had all the tools. It brought great self satisfaction, and led me to purchase the tools I did not have to fix, customize, or build all my 1911's JL I've been told that building a 1911 requires more hand work than building a 2011, and as a result costs more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Baer is not custom...it's in the realm of "semi-custom." Having seen the feature on Shooting USA and watched how they build the 1911s in Baer's shop, I sorta disagree. They really are custom guns (everything is hand-fit and even the checkering is cut by hand)--the only difference is they are built by a number of sets of hands, instead of just one person. Baer has figured out efficiencies that allow him to keep the price pretty reasonable. And that's your opinion. The general consensus in the "1911 world" that I've found is that custom is built for a specific individual, typically by one master gunsmith. Baer, Brown, RRA, Wilson, Nighthawk, Guncrafter, etc. are all considered semi-customs. Now, many features, finishes, etc. are arguably the same. The difference IMO isn't that big, but I have a "built up" custom, not a full-house build, which is entirely different. IMO, custom 1911's are ones that are built in the hands of masters, such as: Harrison, Yost, Bailey, Burton, Rodgers, Rogers, Erickson, Joe C, Williams, Chen, CT Brian, Christiansen, Morris, etc. etc. etc. I understand what you're saying, I just thought you might have have misunderstood what actually goes on at Baer's shop. For example--I certainly thought the checkering on Baer's pistols was cut by machine. Nope--it's all done by hand, mostly by one particular guy. Same with fitting the slide to the frame. Same with fitting the barrel. Same with fitting the fire control mechanism. So if you discount the fancy little cosmetic stuff that is done "for a specific individual," what is really different? From a practical perspective? It's still primarily a matter of taking high-quality components and fitting/assembling them properly. You'll have to admit that in today's "1911 world" we have largely moved away from the days when the first-generation pistolsmiths (like Austin Behlert, as the first example that comes to mind) would use a torch and file to make or radically modify parts by hand. We have so much available in terms of high-quality 1911 components that is simply no longer practical or cost-effective. So today's "masters" are primarily parts assemblers--not there's anything wrong with that. But truth be told, many of the names you mention are charging really exorbitant amounts of money for the fancy cosmetics. It's not uncommon to see custom 1911s offered for sale that cost $4,000-6,000, and some of those guns are really nothing more than basic carry guns with Novak sights! Check this out and see the prices people are apparently paying for Yost guns (not trying to pick on anyone in particular--this is just an example): http://www.heirloomprecision.com/forsale/pistols.shtml $6,300 for a refit Colt Govt. Model with a Kart barrel and fairly basic custom work? Really? I can't help but think that somewhere out there, P.T. Barnum is laughing at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 .....and it should make us really appreciate the world of 1911/2011 gunsmiths who specialize in making competition guns that are a whole lot more gun for a whole lot less money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 .....and it should make us really appreciate the world of 1911/2011 gunsmiths who specialize in making competition guns that are a whole lot more gun for a whole lot less money. I couldn't agree more. Cheely did an excellent job on my STI slide, and while it isn't a custom gun, it sure is nice to add some custom features to a factory gun and end up with a decent competition gun without breaking the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) Yup, people will pay. The custom gunsmiths haven't really suffered anything from the bad economy, at least from what I can tell. Most, if not all of the people I mentioned (and others) currently have 4+ year backlogs for full house custom guns! Crazy? I have no idea. There is a limit IMO, and that's right about $2.5-3k. For that kind of money, anything you buy or get built by a master gunsmith is going to be all about the same, like you said. The parts are going to be fit by hand, to extreme detail. The difference in a $3k Wilson and a $7k Morris custom? I have no idea, but it's not worth it to me. The biggest thing that stands out to me is quality and reliability. Baer, Brown, Wilson, etc. all have outstanding 1911's, and most of them perform very well. Of course there are going to be some bad apples in every bunch, things happen. The "one" thing that separates the "lower" 1911's from the semi-customs and customs is the gunsmiths (or several in the case of the big 4) ability to simply make the gun run, and run, and run. The one thing that REALLY irritates me is that Les is very well known for cutting corners on the Commanche's. The frame dimensions are simply wrong, and it's a well known fact that many of them will not allow for a "slingshot." Personally I find that terrible business and terrible practice, and would not buy a Baer on this principle alone. However, most people report that they love their 5" Baers. In the end, it all comes down to personal preference and how much money you want to spend! Isn't that the fun part about 1911's? BTW: Go tell a master gunsmith all they do is assemble parts together, and report back with what they tell you. Edited July 27, 2011 by polizei1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
818-DVC Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 A friend won a custom baer valued at over $3k at the steel nationals and spoke directly with Les, and les said he was building the gun himself. I know very little about Baer guns, but apparently there are semi custom series factory guns, and theres a few guns Les Builds himself. Why would Les build a prize table gun?? Bill rodgers can build a sweet gun and you know HE built it, and its rarely over $3000. Just priced out an SV single stack team gun... Blued pricetag of $5200 & If I had the money I would get one. SV billlit frames & parts, customer service are 2nd to none. It's no beauty pageant winner, or elegant by any means. It is the evolution of SS. It's the paradigm of 100 yrs of technology precision pistol making. It's not for Everyone either. Some people want that old classic looks and stay true JMBs or Colt's design. That's cool. I have a bunch of em. A lot of people have them.however It sure would be nice to have something different! JL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I'll give you my perspective since we coat a lot of custom pistols and I have seen plenty of both. There is custom and then there is "custom." They are not the same, and the custom custom is functional art. Prices are reflective of what the builder can get for his time. No one can tell me a 7k is the same as a 2k pistol. They might shoot similarly, but if you are paying 7K, you aren't buying just function, you are buying the time of the artist building it. I have a friend who makes art from scrap metal as well as bronze. If you are going to have him build you something, you will get great work, and you will pay for it, as many of his pieces go for well over 6 figures and the cost of the material is most likely under 1K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 (edited) I've been told that building a 1911 requires more hand work than building a 2011, and as a result costs more. I've built both, and the only difference I can think of that would be more work on the 1911 would be checkering the frontstrap and beveling the mag well opening. Add the checkering, undercutting, fitting of all the parts that have to be fit to a metal frame and the SS ends up being a couple hundred more. I think the last gun I had built the parts cost 1400$ What parts need to be fit to a metal frame that don't need to be fit to a 2011 frame? I already mentioned the frontstrap checkering, and when I checker a frontstrap I do the undercutting as part of the job. Edited July 28, 2011 by 392heminut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjanglin Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 5200 hmm thats near 3 Caspian single stacks. Jim/Pa Sailors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 5200 hmm thats near 3 Caspian single stacks. Jim/Pa Sailors I'd rather have 3 of yours than one of Yost's. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I'll give you my perspective since we coat a lot of custom pistols and I have seen plenty of both. There is custom and then there is "custom." They are not the same, and the custom custom is functional art. Prices are reflective of what the builder can get for his time. No one can tell me a 7k is the same as a 2k pistol. They might shoot similarly, but if you are paying 7K, you aren't buying just function, you are buying the time of the artist building it. I have a friend who makes art from scrap metal as well as bronze. If you are going to have him build you something, you will get great work, and you will pay for it, as many of his pieces go for well over 6 figures and the cost of the material is most likely under 1K. Oh, come on guys. Parts can only be so fit. The barrel to slide to the frame. The tuning also can only go so far too. If all the parts are maticulessly hand fit together and hand polished that is all you can do. There is not a 1911 on the planet worth 3000 let alone 7 grand no matter what kind of art it is. If you are in this sport to win spend all extra money on shooting.. If you feel the need to throw away that much money there are a lot of hungry kids in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 (edited) LOL Tell that to Mark. I'm not about to tell people how to spend their money, as that is not my place. I would say 1000 (or more) to 1 people buy pistols to "just have" and not for shooting regularly. ps. 1911s are super cheap compared to nice double barreled shotguns and safari rifles also. You can spend over 10k just on an engraved stock. Edited July 28, 2011 by Loves2Shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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