jdknotts1 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) I shot [a match] this past weekend. Was shooting decent until the second half. I had a bad magazine and made sure to put it in the back so I wouldn't grab for it on a reload unless I had to. Went to the line, SO gave command to load, make ready. I charged the gun and pulled the mag out to top it off. He told me I couldnt do that. He said, "We cant have people fumbling with mags or ammo up on the line. Just insert a new mag." I ended up putting the bad mag in and had a jam during the COF. I was pretty irritated. I expressed my thoughts and sarcastically said, "thanks" and walked to the next stage. At this point I was pretty mad. On the next stage I got a procedural for reloading on the move through a doorway. This only made my anger worse. While walking away, I looked up at the sky and said "F&*K!" It was not directed at any SO. They were doing their job and I'm the one who screwed up. That was the last stage and I was done shooting for the day. The Match Director was there and we chatted for a few moments. He told me to lighten up, it was only a game. We chatted as if things were fine. I just need not take it so serious. I cooled off because it was done and over with. No mention of a FTDR or unsportsmanlike conduct....... Next day scores come out and I have a FTDR. I emailed the person keeping score thinking it was just a mistake. Nope.. FTDR for unsportsmanlike conduct toward the SO's for the stage... I am new to IDPA but are we not allowed to shoot with intensity? Are we not allowed to voice our anger or frustration? I dont want this topic to get blocked so keep it straight. This is a valid topic and I would like some input from SO's or MD's personal experience. I really dont want to get banned from a shooting sport I enjoy doing because I am vocal when I get mad. Edited July 17, 2011 by Flexmoney to remove reference to a specific match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prreed10 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I was not there, so I don't have all the facts, but any time I have given an FTDR, I have told the shooter the reason why, and they had the chance to plead their case to the MD. They knew they were getting it well before the scores came out. Some people are sensitive to profanity in public, especially if women & children are present. I have been guilty of this multiple times and now try to control my anger. I find if I focus on the mistake, it can ruin the rest of the match. I make a correction if necessary and focus concentration on the next stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 FTDR should be discussed and not given in stealth. I've been guilty of colorful speech after/during a screw-up. It is not the right way to behave at a match, and I know it. The mag thing was an SO error. I also prefer to have shooters L&MR with mags ready to roll, but SOs aren't authorized to create rules based on their feelings. After SO dictated his preferences, you should have either 1) used the good mag on your belt and set the crummy mag as the #2 reload mag OR 2) used the bad mag as a Barney mag. IME, matches are mostly attended by men, and there is usually a bit of tolerance for sailor talk when just the fellas are around. At the same time, it's not a high school locker room or barracks where F-bombs are the normal mode of speech. JMHO Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdknotts1 Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 I tend to talk like a sailor too often and at inopportune times. Make me aware of it or just a dirty look sometimes is good enough and I watch my tongue. But I didn't hear anything. No dirty look. And the MD sat there and had a conversation with me after the fact like nothing happened. So I agree, the language isnt the best. But FTDR for saying the F-word? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 At least you swore "off the clock", that's a good sign. Also your expletive of choice is the fastest one you can say, if you must while the timer is running. Intense, is fine while the timer is counting. Your not helping your game by hauling irritation from one stage to another. I have never seen an FTDR given at our club over the last 8 years and more than one of us cuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlweems Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I think that a FTDR is appropriate for profanity depending on the circumstances. If something just slips out during a stage, it's a bit more understandable than it being in response to getting a procedural. It's also different if someone is muttering to them self versus yelling out something. Perhaps the MD or an SO giving a discreet reminder would be in good order prior to a FTDR prior to giving a FTDR. Regardless, a shooter should know that they got a FTDR or any other penalty. It isn't something they should find out later when they see the scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Come give 3-gun a try - you can cuss all you want! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 It sounds like it was legit call, but it should have been clearly expressed at the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 matches are mostly attended by men, and there is usually a bit of tolerance for sailor talk when just the fellas are around Hmm...never been squadded with (or RO'ed by) my wife, have you? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkie Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 As a SO or MD I would not have given the FTDR. I would have told you to stop cussing cause I don't want to hear that. I have on occasion had to remind people my wife or daughter is scoring and keep it clean. But that is all it takes and in my mind does not mean you get a FTDR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 It sounds like it was legit call, but it should have been clearly expressed at the match. I agree with the second part but I am not sure it is a legit call. Handing out a FTDR based on the SO's feelings, morals, or any other judgment based on an emotional response doesn't seem to be a good idea. Being an SO doesn't give a person the right to pass moral judgment on the shooters. But I do agree if you are going to hand out an FTDR be an adult and do it at the range and in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I would never give a F'ing FTDR for cussing. Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankfan79 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) Ok here is my thought. I have heard numerous shooters cuss out loud when they mess up a stage. I have done it on a number of occassions. I know it is actually wrong but it happens. I have never given a FTDR but have come really close due to a shooter cussing at me for giving him a procedural during a stage. I have a rule of thumb that on the 3rd cuss word, you get the FTDR (if directed at me). Anything after that and you get a DQ. I do not spend my hard earned money and time to get get cussed at and since I don't want to go to jail for punching someone in the mouth....I will just issue a PE. Fact of the matter is this. We would all like to grow our sport and cussing COULD possibly run someone or someones family off from shooting at that range. It IS unsportsman like. Do I think you should have gotten one? Not so sure. Was the SO wrong for doing it? No. Was he wrong for waiting until the scores came out. Absolutely. You should have been notified and given a chance to talk to the MD (unless it was the same person). It's just a PE. Learn from it and don't do it again. It happens. Keep shooting and don't let it get to you. My grandfather always said "A man cusses when he can't express what is on his mind." Edited July 17, 2011 by hankfan79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Shooting and handling guns is the not the time to throw temper tantrums. I think the penalty was deserved, but you should have been told so immediatley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Shooting and handling guns is the not the time to throw temper tantrums. I think the penalty was deserved, but you should have been told so immediatley. Right. It's not about the cussing. We are out there, wearing guns. We need to keep our bearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Also, by looking at your avatar your either a Marine or former Marine. You should keep in mind that you represent or represented our country’s military. People may expect more from you and/or hold you to a higher standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Bad calls stink as do SO's who dont know the rules. However, cursing and throwing fits stink too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankfan79 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 former Marine. No such thing. That has nothing to do with it. In this game, we treat everyone the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdknotts1 Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 First off, it wasn't a temper tantrum... Second, I think I have represented my country better than most. But my military career or my current career have nothing to do with this. I was mad. I deserved the PE. The only thing I can think of is that they thought the words were directed at the SO's. But they weren't. This is where me explaining myself would have helped. Maybe an apology would have been in order. When I am mad, I am usually mad at myself. No one else. But unfortunately I have the type of personality that most do not know how to take me. If I have a problem, I voice it. If I have an issue, you will know about it. I too often expect others to tell me if there is a problem. But I usually have no such luck. I am who I am. I'm just trying to get an idea how most places are. I've only shot 3 sanctioned matches and do not know much about the IDPA population other than what I see at club matches. And as I said in my first post, I enjoy IDPA and do not want to have a hard time because I say whats on my mind. On the SO giving me the questionable orders. I have never heard that from an SO. I shoot CDP so I need to top off my mag to get to division capacity. Do some really have a problem with topping off the mag in the gun??? I cant see the safety issue in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I agree that cussing is out of line but a warning should come ahead of a FTDR. If it continues then a FTDR is appropriate. It should be given immediately not after the match has concluded and the shooter should be made aware of it so he can give his side of the story. Sounds like these SOs need to read the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) jdknotts here is what I do when I step to the line to shoot, this may work for you. On the commmand to load and make ready, I already have my full magazine in my hand. I load the magazine, charge the gun, then do a reload with retention. I holster, then remove the mag with one less round from my pocket, top it off and put it in my mag holder. Very quick, efficient and you get to practice a reload to boot.. try it.. Edited July 17, 2011 by Sac Law Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdknotts1 Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 jdknotts here is what I do when I step to the line to shoot, this may work for you. On the commmand to load and make ready, I already have my full magazine in my hand. I load the magazine, charge the gun, then do a reload with retention. I holster, then remove the mag with one less round from my pocket, top it off and put it in my mag holder. Very quick, efficient and you get to practice a reload to boot.. try it.. Thanks. A much more efficient way to do it. Will do that from now on. It flustered me when he changed up my routine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Just talked to the MD. Now for the rest of the story.... Shooter did have a profanity ridden acute fit, iincluding the throwing of magazines and what not, both with the SO and MD. From the witnesses i talked to it was eather epic in scope This is NOT the reason for the penalty. Shooter shot the AM session. After the shooter left, it was discovered when the shooter signed his score sheet, the shooter had attempted to scribble over his Procedural on that stage. The stats person caught this and questioned the SO about it, who confirmed that none if the range staff had rescinded the procedural. After due consideration, the MD issued an unsportsmanlike conduct FTDR for altering the scoresheet. The shooter had already left the range, so they did not contact him. I suspect the severity of his outburst tempered their enthusiasm to call him directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdknotts1 Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 The stage in question is stage two. I have 20/20 vision and cant see that I scribbled my procedural out. You guys make the call. Second, bad magazine.... Damn right I got that thing away from me as quick as possible. Bad day, bad way. I was a dick but I dont think I deserved a FTDR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 The plot thickens.... JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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