DQ or not?

[Schutzenmeister]

A call to local police might be in order could be local laws cover this.

I seriously doubt that action would be against the law in any state.

And Chuck ... as I recall you have an LEO background ... Absent someone actually being injured, what do you think the odds would be that a local prosecutor would even agree to accept the case? Slim to none, I suspect!

[Chuck Anderson]

I still think the question has some relevancy. If I go to my home range the night before a match and practice, without supervision of an RO, clearly I'm OK right? So at what point does that become a no-no. Anytime on match day? Within an hour of the start? I think we're on pretty solid ground when it comes to major matches. There is normally a schedule that talks about when the range is open, or the match is underway. I think anytime during that period we'd be good to DQ. But what about local matches without a schedule?

Chuck

In THIS instance I would opine it's pretty clear. They set up the match that morning. The shooter put on his gear in preparation for the match. Upon being told by an RO his gun was cocked (locked or not) in the holster he drew the gun, dropped the hammer and reholstered it ... without the RO telling him he could handle the gun. (As I understand the OP's description.)

10.5.1 requires (among other things) the handling of the gun to be in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. Unless I misunderstand the facts as given, although there was de facto supervision by an RO, no such command was given by the RO. Hence, 10.5.1 clearly applies in this case and the shooter should be DQ'd. Given the circumstances, I would have trouble accepting this somehow occured "outside" the event we call a "match."

In this specific case, I would probably agree with you. Although I can still see some ways around it with my gamey weasely mind. None I would use, but I can hear them being used. Take the setup at my home range. We have 14 bays in the action range area. We normally use 6 of them for our monthly USPSA matches. The other 8 are open for club member use before and during the match. It's not uncommon for competitors to show up at the range a bit early (range opens for shooting at 8A and match starts at 9A), go into one of the other open bays and sight in or reliability test a gun. We don't have a section of the bays we use for USPSA. Typical set up would be Bay 1, Bay 4 and Bay 7-10.

Let's say a shooter shows up at 8A and walks to Bay 2. He starts shooting and has a loaded gun (obviously) while shooting. Not under the supervision of an RO. How about if he is walking through the parking lot with the slide on his gun back heading for Bay 2. RO approaches him and he says he's just a club member shooting in Bay 2 (slide back is allowed by club rules) Then he later decides to sign up for the match that morning after shooting a couple rounds through his new super gun.

Or the reverse. Last shot fired at 1P. Shooter goes over to Bay 2 at 1:15 P to figure out how far his sights are off because with the number of targets missed, something has to be wrong with the gun. How about if he finishes shooting at 12:30 but there is a really slow squad shooting. Does he have to wait till the end?

Or take a larger match as an example. Say Nationals. Last day of the first match, scores are posted and final. Can a shooter go out and shoot on the stages? If he does, which match does he get DQ'd from, first or second? How about if he's only shooting the first match, and just wants to figure out a better way to shoot stage 2. Now obviously the range would probably have an issue with this, but what is the resolution from USPSA regarding it?

Might be something that needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis. We have a clear line defining when a course of fire begins and ends. Be nice to try and come up with one for the match itself.

[Chuck Anderson]

A call to local police might be in order could be local laws cover this.

I seriously doubt that action would be against the law in any state.

And Chuck ... as I recall you have an LEO background ... Absent someone actually being injured, what do you think the odds would be that a local prosecutor would even agree to accept the case? Slim to none, I suspect!

I'd have to hear a relevant statute first. But I can tell you in Oregon I doubt you could even get a police officer to respond to that. There is nothing remotely criminal in that action.

[JThompson]

Chuck makes some good points and is a perfect example of how things are more complicated at the local level. IF this were a major there would be no other bays not under supervision, but in the local level you often see this.

How I personally handle this is to grab another guy not shooting and bring him over to the bay not being used and have him/her supervise my gun handling. There are many of these type of deals at locals that must be looked at on a case by case. What needs to happen is a fair minded person using the rules of both the USPSA and the range to determine the applicable action. This type of deal is often not black and white....

In this case where a guy pulled the gun and dropped the hammer between a couple of guys and without asking for supervision or going to the safe area.... DQ

JT

Edited July 12, 2011 by JThompson

[spanky]

So if that's the case then you could be DQ'd on setup day if setup occurs the day before a match?

Are you implying that, on the day before the match, they set up the stages and, with no intent of shooting stages on that day, the shooter goes and puts on his gear and has a cocked pistol in his holster?

First, while not impossible, I think this situation is unlikely. Second, I believe setup and tear down are integral parts of the match. (Try holding a match without these functions!) Is there some reason we should not expect the same rules of match safety to apply during these time frames? Were the gun to have been loaded and gone bang (and perhaps hit someone in the foot,) would not the USPSA program at that club been held in part responsible for failure to enforce safety standards? I suspect they would.

How about a carry pistol?

[Schutzenmeister]

In this specific case, I would probably agree with you. Although I can still see some ways around it with my gamey weasely mind. None I would use, but I can hear them being used. Take the setup at my home range. We have 14 bays in the action range area. We normally use 6 of them for our monthly USPSA matches. The other 8 are open for club member use before and during the match. It's not uncommon for competitors to show up at the range a bit early (range opens for shooting at 8A and match starts at 9A), go into one of the other open bays and sight in or reliability test a gun. We don't have a section of the bays we use for USPSA. Typical set up would be Bay 1, Bay 4 and Bay 7-10.

Let's say a shooter shows up at 8A and walks to Bay 2. He starts shooting and has a loaded gun (obviously) while shooting. Not under the supervision of an RO. How about if he is walking through the parking lot with the slide on his gun back heading for Bay 2. RO approaches him and he says he's just a club member shooting in Bay 2 (slide back is allowed by club rules) Then he later decides to sign up for the match that morning after shooting a couple rounds through his new super gun.

Or the reverse. Last shot fired at 1P. Shooter goes over to Bay 2 at 1:15 P to figure out how far his sights are off because with the number of targets missed, something has to be wrong with the gun. How about if he finishes shooting at 12:30 but there is a really slow squad shooting. Does he have to wait till the end?

Or take a larger match as an example. Say Nationals. Last day of the first match, scores are posted and final. Can a shooter go out and shoot on the stages? If he does, which match does he get DQ'd from, first or second? How about if he's only shooting the first match, and just wants to figure out a better way to shoot stage 2. Now obviously the range would probably have an issue with this, but what is the resolution from USPSA regarding it?

Might be something that needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis. We have a clear line defining when a course of fire begins and ends. Be nice to try and come up with one for the match itself.

Aw Chuck ... That's a mouthful! Let's take it in small bites!

In general terms, for the local match I would look at it something like this;

If he is a club member on a bay NOT involved in the match (to include transit to/from the bay), I would think local club SOP's would apply. It would not be under the jurisdiction of USPSA Rules. However, once the shooter enters the area(s) where the match is being held during the time they should apply, USPSA Rules come into effect and should be complied with. It's a facts and circumstances test.

With respect to the Nationals: The highest posting I've ever held at those matches is CRO ... Hence I do not presume to usurp the authority or opinions of the DNROI or the two RMs, Troy and Carl. However, it has been my experience that the ranges are closed and off-limits to competitors during the transition period between the two events. This is primarily for logistical reasons of allowing the match staff room and (uninterupted) time to make the transitions. Clearly, no live fire is allowed on these bays during this time! Once setup is complete, the ranges are generally opened for inspection only during registration. I don't recall EVER seeing a competitor walking the areas, looking at the stages after registration and prior to the first day of the match, while wearing their equipment. Not saying it hasn't happened ... Just saying I've never witnessed it.

[Schutzenmeister]

So if that's the case then you could be DQ'd on setup day if setup occurs the day before a match?

Are you implying that, on the day before the match, they set up the stages and, with no intent of shooting stages on that day, the shooter goes and puts on his gear and has a cocked pistol in his holster?

First, while not impossible, I think this situation is unlikely. Second, I believe setup and tear down are integral parts of the match. (Try holding a match without these functions!) Is there some reason we should not expect the same rules of match safety to apply during these time frames? Were the gun to have been loaded and gone bang (and perhaps hit someone in the foot,) would not the USPSA program at that club been held in part responsible for failure to enforce safety standards? I suspect they would.

How about a carry pistol?

If you want to split hairs on that point, try Rule 2.5. See also my response to Chuck on the issues he raised.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Schutzenmeister

[Poppa Bear]

So if that's the case then you could be DQ'd on setup day if setup occurs the day before a match?

Are you implying that, on the day before the match, they set up the stages and, with no intent of shooting stages on that day, the shooter goes and puts on his gear and has a cocked pistol in his holster?

First, while not impossible, I think this situation is unlikely. Second, I believe setup and tear down are integral parts of the match. (Try holding a match without these functions!) Is there some reason we should not expect the same rules of match safety to apply during these time frames? Were the gun to have been loaded and gone bang (and perhaps hit someone in the foot,) would not the USPSA program at that club been held in part responsible for failure to enforce safety standards? I suspect they would.

How about a carry pistol?

My take on a CCW falls much in line with Mikes response. It is a case by case basis. If setup is the day before the match and the CCW stays as a CCW then I would let it go. If the setup is in the hours prior to the match I would DQ if they did not remove the gun in accordance with 2.5.

To me the match starts on the day of the actual shooting. It is in force for the entire range if it is entirely a USPSA event. If it is only part of the range then only those parts in use for the event are judged by USPSA rules, the remainder of the range is covered under the general range rules.

[spanky]

So if that's the case then you could be DQ'd on setup day if setup occurs the day before a match?

Are you implying that, on the day before the match, they set up the stages and, with no intent of shooting stages on that day, the shooter goes and puts on his gear and has a cocked pistol in his holster?

First, while not impossible, I think this situation is unlikely. Second, I believe setup and tear down are integral parts of the match. (Try holding a match without these functions!) Is there some reason we should not expect the same rules of match safety to apply during these time frames? Were the gun to have been loaded and gone bang (and perhaps hit someone in the foot,) would not the USPSA program at that club been held in part responsible for failure to enforce safety standards? I suspect they would.

How about a carry pistol?

If you want to split hairs on that point, try Rule 2.5. See also my response to Chuck on the issues he raised.

Not splitting hairs at all. This is actually a legitimate issue that arose recently at a setup day for a club that I am involved in.

[Chuck Anderson]

And this is why I just harass John with this stuff.

6.5.3 A match, tournament or league will be deemed to have started on the

first day that competitors (including those specified above) shoot for

score and will be deemed to have ended when the results have been

declared final by the Match Director.

So as far as the start time and end time there is a clear line. The hitch comes with other bays not in use for the specific match. I'll see what I can come up with. As far as the OP's example, no question now, DQ.

[spanky]

What time on the first day?

[Schutzenmeister]

What time on the first day?

I suppose that depends, Spanky ...

How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

[JThompson]

What time on the first day?

I suppose that depends, Spanky ...

How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

[Chuck Anderson]

What time on the first day?

I would say at 12:01 AM. That's the day of the match. If something else is meant or needed the rule needs to be changed. Otherwise, that's what it says.

[spanky]

What time on the first day?

I suppose that depends, Spanky ...

How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

How big is the pin? How small are the angel's feet?

[spanky]

What time on the first day?

I would say at 12:01 AM. That's the day of the match. If something else is meant or needed the rule needs to be changed. Otherwise, that's what it says.

I honestly wasn't trying to be sarcastic or argumentative. 12:01 is what I would assume based on the wording of the rule.

[JThompson]

What time on the first day?

I would say at 12:01 AM. That's the day of the match. If something else is meant or needed the rule needs to be changed. Otherwise, that's what it says.

000:00.00

Edited July 12, 2011 by JThompson

[Flexmoney]

Ok, going back and re-reading my post I guess I left out a very important part.

Once I told him that his hammer was cocked, he proceeded to yank the gun from the holster and dryfire it into the ground between us. This all took place about 100 yards from the safe area.

The major part of the question relates to WHEN (time wise, not situation wise) it is acceptable to DQ someone. This all took place before the match began.

The "when" is a good question. Because, if the match rules don't yet apply...that would be a good time to pop him in the nose.

[Carmoney]

Another situation in which the time and space parameters become important is side matches. I have seen Jerry Miculek decline to shoot a side match because he knew he already had won the main match and wanted to eliminate any possibility that something could go wrong during the side match and he could get DQ'd for the whole thing.

6.5.3 resolves the start and finish issue.

Not quite as sure on the issue of where the "match facility" physically begins and ends. Ordinarily it should apply to the whole range property, but that doesn't accommodate those situations where a bay is available for practice or sighting in, or when there is a side match or some other kind of shooting event available on-site during the match.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Carmoney

[Jim Norman]

A call to local police might be in order could be local laws cover this.

Why, please tell me WHY you would call the police? Range Master yes, certainly and probably, in fact definitely some remedial education

The question is clearly relevant -- and whatever definition we come up with needs to cover all situations, from level 1 matches with set-up occurring the day to build it in the morning, tear it down in the afternoon situations, to Nationals....

Locally, there's no question that we would disinvite that competitor from playing with us that day. Depending on the response to that decision, it might be a permanent disinvitation from the hosting facility. Note that we would make that decision as members of the hosting club, not as a USPSA decision....

I believe that once you enter the range on Match Day or match build day, unless you are on a separate area designated as separate from the match, you are at the match and the match rules apply.

We have had people walk up to the registration table with their gun on, All the safety tables are past where the sign-up is, "Pardon me, but where did you gear up?", "At my car, we do it all the time at XXX range in XX, Why, is there a problem?" "Yes, there is, you obviously do not know the rules." argument ensues, an explanation of the rules is given, person is asked to leave. Sorry, but the rules are the rules. Now, if the shooter had shown up, said, I never did this before, I saw the rest of the people had their guns on... MAYBE depending upon his attitude, we'd do some on the spot remedial education and he'd be allowed to shoot. A USPSA member KNOWS BETTER, and to argue that it is OK???? Really? Not on our range, sorry, only regret is that we didn't sign him up and take his money first. But he already had a three hour drive home so ....

In many cases you need to remove a carry gun at the gate, before entering the range. At that point you would be under the influence of the rulebook.

This is covered, the host range is supposed to either make a location that is designated outside the match to un-holster and stow, OR upon showing up at the range, the shooter is to immediately find the MD, RM or other person in charge and be taken to a safe area to un-gun.

It really isn't that hard. We have the basics in our registration email, on our website and it is of course available here an don the USPSA website. And hey, most of us have our email or phone or both posted, ASK!!!

[JThompson]

Mike,

That was precisely why Ray made the steel at A5 a separate match... that way if you screwed up you still had one match in the books.

JT

[JThompson]

Removed

Edited July 13, 2011 by JThompson

[GrumpyOne]

And this is why I just harass John with this stuff.

6.5.3 A match, tournament or league will be deemed to have started on the

first day that competitors (including those specified above) shoot for

score and will be deemed to have ended when the results have been

declared final by the Match Director.

So as far as the start time and end time there is a clear line. The hitch comes with other bays not in use for the specific match. I'll see what I can come up with. As far as the OP's example, no question now, DQ.

Correct, in a sense....but what about this?

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare

one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other

competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior

to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

If he had not signed the sheet, declaring a Division, then the match could not have been started...therefore no DQ. And, to read a bit further into it, I would think that all of the competitors would have to sign in and declare a Division before you could call it a match....Typically, at the local level, people sign in that morning, after setting up...so set up technically, by 6.2.3, is not part of the match. It all depends on when he signed in and if all other shooters were also signed in....

[bluenite]

Why, please tell me WHY you would call the police? Range Master yes, certainly and probably, in fact definitely some remedial education

he proceeded to yank the gun from the holster and dryfire it into the ground between us.

Whether it be the parking lot of a bar or a public event, parade, match ect..

Someone yanks out a gun and points it at multiple people.

Lets just say I see something wrong with that.

This is not the response I would expect.

I'd have to hear a relevant statute first. But I can tell you in Oregon I doubt you could even get a police officer to respond to that. There is nothing remotely criminal in that action.

[Gregory_k]

USPA match has no nothing to do with this.

If I understand correctly the guy pulled a weapon from a holster and pulled the trigger with the gun pointing in to the ground with the op down range and in line of said weapon. In my mind it does not matter if it was match day or not.

I would ban the sob from the range.

Your club ahould have rules about this already.