Engaging Targets from under a wall – What is the proper call

[Morphire]

I agree with your assertion. If there is 100% possibility that a target can not be engaged from a location, and the shooter attempts to engage that target from that location, then I'm 100% positive that they have failed to engage it from that location. Seems 100% clear to me.

Nope, sorry.

Just because you are 100% sure doesn't mean that the next RO will agree with you.

I could say that ANY shot into hard cover is a FTE/FTSA, no matter how close to the edge.

We CANNOT allow judgement calls of where a shooter can and cannot shoot at a target.

I keep asking, and nobody has answered my question: how far out of location is too far?

Until that is answered with a fixed dimension in the rule book, we cannot allow RO's to make that judgement call.

Lee

I'm sorry but that's just unrealistic. The ROs are asked to make judgement calls constantly. Was that finger out of the trigger guard or wasn't it? Was that muzzle past 180 or at 179.5? As an RO you can ask yourself the simple question. Could the shooter have been able to reasonably make the shot on that target from where he attempted to engage it? If so then no FTE, If not then FTE. We already have a system for arbitration for the shooter that doesn't agree with the call. Arb the call if you disagree with it but the RO can make a judgement call. They do it all the time. The rule book would be a billion pages long if it had to cover, exactly, every possible scenario and situation that could ever happen in this sport.

[sharps4070ss]

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here.

I don't want RO's to make a judgement call on where a shot is "allowed" to be taken from.

Lee

[Schutzenmeister]

I agree with your assertion. If there is 100% possibility that a target can not be engaged from a location, and the shooter attempts to engage that target from that location, then I'm 100% positive that they have failed to engage it from that location. Seems 100% clear to me.

Nope, sorry.

Just because you are 100% sure doesn't mean that the next RO will agree with you.

I could say that ANY shot into hard cover is a FTE/FTSA, no matter how close to the edge.

We CANNOT allow judgement calls of where a shooter can and cannot shoot at a target.

I keep asking, and nobody has answered my question: how far out of location is too far?

Until that is answered with a fixed dimension in the rule book, we cannot allow RO's to make that judgement call.

Lee

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here.

I don't want RO's to make a judgement call on where a shot is "allowed" to be taken from.

Lee

Lee

I respectfully suggest that you avail yourself of the next RO course that comes to your area. I believe you will find there that the RMIs ALL teach that ROs must exercise judgement. As a current RM, that is one of the qualities I look for in selecting CROs/ROs to work matches ... I expect them to have some reasonable ability to make a judgement call and make it correctly.

[sharps4070ss]

Lee

I respectfully suggest that you avail yourself of the next RO course that comes to your area. I believe you will find there that the RMIs ALL teach that ROs must exercise judgement. As a current RM, that is one of the qualities I look for in selecting CROs/ROs to work matches ... I expect them to have some reasonable ability to make a judgement call and make it correctly.

Let me clear up something here....I'm NOT saying that RO's should not make judgement calls in any case.

I'm saying that they should not be allowed to say what is and what is not an "allowed shot".

There is nothing in the rule book about an "allowed shot", and RO's can't hand out penalties based on what they think or feel is "right" in this specific case.

Please don't think I'm painting with a broad brush about judgement calls.

I am just arguing that in this specific case, allowing RO's to decide an "allowable shot" goes against the freestyle shooting that USPSA/IPSC is based on.

Lee

[Skydiver]

There is nothing in the rule book about an "allowed shot", and RO's can't hand out penalties based on what they think or feel is "right" in this specific case.

Umm...

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

This rule allows indoor ranges and clubs with not a lot of props to say where or when shooters are allowed to shoot at particular targets arrays.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

Look at it this way: three targets around a corner the first two targets the shooter engages no problem, but the shooter doesn't quite get out around the corner far enough and puts two rounds through the wall trying to hit the last inside target.

FTE? his bullets had no chance to hit the target(wall in the way)? maybe he could see the target from where he was(shooting error) [snip]is this really any different than the original scenario?

I'd like to expand on this thought.

Multiple posters have said that a swinger chased into hardcover/no shoot is okay, but somewhere between that situation and shooting under/ through the wall is not okay.

For the "yes FTE" guys, how far away from having a clear shot at the target is okay?

6 inches? 1 foot? 20 feet?

Where do you draw the line?

You can't have it both ways. Both situations are either FTE/FTSA or they are not.

Lee

USPSA makes the definition for "Location" to mean "a geographical place in a course of fire" be it a box or a port in a wall or whatever. We often use it to determine if we have broken the more than 8 shots from one location stricture within the rules when designing a CoF. (1.2.1)

The ruling is simple. Is the target available from the shooting location or not? If it is, then no FTE. The competitor clearly had an opportunity to hit the target and successfully made that attempt if they indexed on the target and "shot" at it's face. If, from that shooting location, the target was unavailable to be engaged then it is unavailable and therefore will incur an FTE if that is the only place the shooter shoots at it's face. You draw the line at a well trained RO to know enough of what a shooting location is. We ask it of them in other scenarios within the rules so why not here as well?

Does "geographical place" or "location" include the vertical axis? If the stage designer forgets to put "walls go up to the sky", then the target may not be "available" under the wall, but it may be available over the wall. As stated before there is no requirement that the shooter by able to see the target when they are shooting at it.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Skydiver

[Morphire]

Does "geographical place" include the vertical axis? If the stage designer forgets to put "walls go up to the sky", then the target may not be "available" under the wall, but it may be available over the wall. As stated before there is no requirement that the shooter by able to see the target when they are shooting at it.

The stage designer can either build the wall to a height making it unaccessible to even the tallest of shooters, state in the WSB that walls extend to infinity above the height constructed, or leave them as they are and let someone figure out how good or bad the tactic is of attempting to engage the target over the wall. If the shooter sticks their gun over the wall and attempts to shoot at the target then I have no issue with saying there is no FTE if I can determine that they have shot at the face of the target and not at the back of it. The rule book starts with course design and construction before it ever gets to really talking about the competitor and how to govern shooting and scoring the match. Those rules are for the course designer as well as the RO and the competitor. We all have to work within the confines of the rules.

As an RO, I might be inclined to issue a Stop command if I lose sight of the pistol and believe the rounds heading down range are traveling in an unsafe manner. Should I feel that such a situation existed, I would recommend to my RM that he investigate a Forbidden action by changing the WSB to state that all walls extended upwards to infinity. A loophole in the design of the stage (if shooting over the wall was unintended) was found and it led to a possibly unsafe action. I can find reason under the FA rules to recommend that to my RM.

[aztecdriver]

Does "geographical place" or "location" include the vertical axis? If the stage designer forgets to put "walls go up to the sky", then the target may not be "available" under the wall, but it may be available over the wall. As stated before there is no requirement that the shooter by able to see the target when they are shooting at it.

Ah Hmm....

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis.

You can't have it both ways, right? If you can NOT penalize for shooting a target because it's visible... how about shooting at one that's NOT?!?

Things that make you go mmmmm...

[sharps4070ss]

There is nothing in the rule book about an "allowed shot", and RO's can't hand out penalties based on what they think or feel is "right" in this specific case.

Umm...

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

This rule allows indoor ranges and clubs with not a lot of props to say where or when shooters are allowed to shoot at particular targets arrays.

I'm not arguing about whether or not MD's or stage designers can specify where a target can or can not be shot from.

At this point I'm trying to convince people that allowing RO's to decide where a shot can be taken from (not including safety reasons) is not good policy.

That is the prerogative of the shooter.

In this particular case there was nothing in the WSB about targets required to be engaged at any particular location.

The WSB stated: "Engage targets as they become visible from within the shooting area"

The target was visible when it was engaged.

(and, I might add, the shot was in no way unsafe. I was on the squad when it happened)

Sorry guys, but I'm firmly in the "if it's not in the WSB or the rulebook, you can't assess a penalty" camp on this one.

Respectfully,

Lee

[JThompson]

I agree with your assertion. If there is 100% possibility that a target can not be engaged from a location, and the shooter attempts to engage that target from that location, then I'm 100% positive that they have failed to engage it from that location. Seems 100% clear to me.

Nope, sorry.

Just because you are 100% sure doesn't mean that the next RO will agree with you.

I could say that ANY shot into hard cover is a FTE/FTSA, no matter how close to the edge.

We CANNOT allow judgement calls of where a shooter can and cannot shoot at a target.

I keep asking, and nobody has answered my question: how far out of location is too far?

Until that is answered with a fixed dimension in the rule book, we cannot allow RO's to make that judgement call.

Lee

We make that call everyday when a 180 violation occurs... (when you can shoot at and not)

[sharps4070ss]

I agree with your assertion. If there is 100% possibility that a target can not be engaged from a location, and the shooter attempts to engage that target from that location, then I'm 100% positive that they have failed to engage it from that location. Seems 100% clear to me.

Nope, sorry.

Just because you are 100% sure doesn't mean that the next RO will agree with you.

I could say that ANY shot into hard cover is a FTE/FTSA, no matter how close to the edge.

We CANNOT allow judgement calls of where a shooter can and cannot shoot at a target.

I keep asking, and nobody has answered my question: how far out of location is too far?

Until that is answered with a fixed dimension in the rule book, we cannot allow RO's to make that judgement call.

Lee

We make that call everyday when a 180 violation occurs... (when you can shoot at and not)

Didn't say "when"

I said "where"

Okay, I give up.

I can't seem to get my point across. (seems like I have gored the sacred cow of the RO's)

Lee

[ima45dv8]

Okay, I give up.

I can't seem to get my point across. (seems like I have gored the sacred cow of the RO's)

I think you actually did make your point, but a number of people simply disagree with it.

That's how it goes sometimes.

[sharps4070ss]

Okay, I give up.

I can't seem to get my point across. (seems like I have gored the sacred cow of the RO's)

I think you actually did make your point, but a number of people simply disagree with it.

That's how it goes sometimes.

I would like to think so....but people keep beating me up about judgement calls for 180 infractions.....and that's not what I'm trying to say.

*sigh*

I keep saying that I'm done with this thread but you keep pulling me back in. (Godfather voice)

Lee

[Morphire]

At this point I'm trying to convince people that allowing RO's to decide where a shot can be taken from (not including safety reasons) is not good policy.

That is the prerogative of the shooter.

In this particular case there was nothing in the WSB about targets required to be engaged at any particular location.

The WSB stated: "Engage targets as they become visible from within the shooting area"

The target was visible when it was engaged.

(and, I might add, the shot was in no way unsafe. I was on the squad when it happened)

Sorry guys, but I'm firmly in the "if it's not in the WSB or the rulebook, you can't assess a penalty" camp on this one.

Respectfully,

Lee

I don't see anyone arguing on stopping the shooter from attempting the shot. The RO won't do that unless there is an unsafe or unsportsmanlike action. We are arguing the results of the attempt.

If you are firmly in that camp then explain to me where it says that I have to shoot at a target to score on it. It speaks of a shot and it speaks of bullets passing through the target to score but never actually says I have to shoot the target to score - as silly as that sounds. The rulebook isn't a complete document. It must be administered by ROs and CROs and RMs. We rely on the NROI to train those Officers to know the rules but to also exercise good judgement in making their call. There is a hierarchy of judges on that call so that a competitor can appeal a ruling from RO to CRO and on to RM. The RM's ruling is final but even then, you can put up your money and Arb the call if you still disagree. I believe the rulebook is very favorable of the shooter's rights in these multiple levels of appeal and multiple individuals in judgement. I understand your position, I just don't' agree with it.

[Morphire]

We make that call everyday when a 180 violation occurs... (when you can shoot at and not)

Didn't say "when"

I said "where"

Okay, I give up.

I can't seem to get my point across. (seems like I have gored the sacred cow of the RO's)

Lee

180 calls are always about "where" and have nothing at all to do with when. Where were you when you engaged the target? Was it past the 180 or not? Even that is a somewhat subjective call. In a split second an RO has to make the call as to whether or not they saw a 180 break. If they did and they are confident that they saw it then they make the call. Will 100% of all RO's make that same call at that same moment given that same view and experience? No. Some will see it clearer and others will see it differently. We have an arbitration rule specifically to allow a competitor to appeal a call (albeit in the case of a DQ it's not possible to reverse the decision). The rule can be as black and white in the rulebook as you like but humans have to administer it in the real world so there will always be room for judgement calls that have to be made. We all rely in well trained and experienced RO's to make those calls.

[Loves2Shoot]

There are two camps it seems, the practical and the legalistic, and neither will agree because they work from a different set of values.

The name on the cover of the rulebook is USPSA United States Practical Shooting Association. Shooting through walls is not a practical way to "engage" or "shoot at" targets to me.

If you shoot through hardcover, expect to get non scoring hits plus whatever penalties you earned in the eyes of the RM. If you are a shooter and try to bully the staff to get a call that hurts less for doing something improper, just take it instead of whining. I would insist a FTE if I didn't shoot the stage correctly.

I doubt NROI will touch this at all.

[ima45dv8]

I doubt NROI will touch this at all.

I'm afraid that they will.

[GrumpyOne]

Although it's not about "shooting under a wall", say you have a Texas Star on a stage, but you don't want to shoot it...You pop off one round in the general direction of the star.....To me, you only engaged one of the plates, so that would be 4 FTE's, and 5 misses (if the shot missed the plate), right?

Or, what if they did engage it under the wall....5 FTE's and 5 misses?

Edited August 4, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[ima45dv8]

Although it's not about "shooting under a wall", say you have a Texas Star on a stage, but you don't want to shoot it...You pop off one round in the general direction of the star.....To me, you only engaged one of the plates, so that would be 4 FTE's, right?

That's how I would call it.

It's one Texas Star, but five targets.

[Skydiver]

Although it's not about "shooting under a wall", say you have a Texas Star on a stage, but you don't want to shoot it...You pop off one round in the general direction of the star.....To me, you only engaged one of the plates, so that would be 4 FTE's, right?

That's how I would call it.

It's one Texas Star, but five targets.

I agree.

And if they were shooting under/through a wall, I would yell stop if they did hit one or more of the plates on the star. :-( While I'm having the shooter unload, and holstered, I'd be internally debating whether to order a reshoot for REF, or issue DQ for 10.6.1 if they were angling to get a reshoot because they were bombing the stage.

[Loves2Shoot]

Although it's not about "shooting under a wall", say you have a Texas Star on a stage, but you don't want to shoot it...You pop off one round in the general direction of the star.....To me, you only engaged one of the plates, so that would be 4 FTE's, and 5 misses (if the shot missed the plate), right?

Or, what if they did engage it under the wall....5 FTE's and 5 misses?

Which targets on would you give the FTE's?

[GrumpyOne]

Although it's not about "shooting under a wall", say you have a Texas Star on a stage, but you don't want to shoot it...You pop off one round in the general direction of the star.....To me, you only engaged one of the plates, so that would be 4 FTE's, and 5 misses (if the shot missed the plate), right?

Or, what if they did engage it under the wall....5 FTE's and 5 misses?

Which targets on would you give the FTE's?

Well, the way I see it, even if he did engage the target (under the wall, per Troy's explanation), then he would get at least 4 FTE's, as he didn't pop off 5 rounds...Personally, since that bullet stopped at the wall, I would say 5 FTE's....Either way, you can't shoot 5 plates with 1 bullet...

If he shot 1 round at the star, from a viable shooting location, then I would say 4 FTE's...either way, there are 5 targets out there...We don't score it as 1 Texas Star, we score as 5 plates....

[Loves2Shoot]

Although it's not about "shooting under a wall", say you have a Texas Star on a stage, but you don't want to shoot it...You pop off one round in the general direction of the star.....To me, you only engaged one of the plates, so that would be 4 FTE's, and 5 misses (if the shot missed the plate), right?

Or, what if they did engage it under the wall....5 FTE's and 5 misses?

Which targets on would you give the FTE's?

Well, the way I see it, even if he did engage the target (under the wall, per Troy's explanation), then he would get at least 4 FTE's, as he didn't pop off 5 rounds...Personally, since that bullet stopped at the wall, I would say 5 FTE's....Either way, you can't shoot 5 plates with 1 bullet...

If he shot 1 round at the star, from a viable shooting location, then I would say 4 FTE's...either way, there are 5 targets out there...We don't score it as 1 Texas Star, we score as 5 plates....

I was just asking if you can just issue a FTE or if you have to assign it to a target. I was thinking about a line of poppers a few days back, but a star works too.

[Schutzenmeister]

I was just asking if you can just issue a FTE or if you have to assign it to a target. I was thinking about a line of poppers a few days back, but a star works too.

If you think about it, on most standard scoresheets I've seen, the penalty box is off to the side. It is not necessarily associated with any given target or targets. In any case, take your pick ... You shot at one (i.e., one shot fired), you could not have possibly shot at the other 4!

(I'll leave the whole "under the wall" question alone.)

[Nik Habicht]

Although it's not about "shooting under a wall", say you have a Texas Star on a stage, but you don't want to shoot it...You pop off one round in the general direction of the star.....To me, you only engaged one of the plates, so that would be 4 FTE's, and 5 misses (if the shot missed the plate), right?

Or, what if they did engage it under the wall....5 FTE's and 5 misses?

Which targets on would you give the FTE's?

Well, the way I see it, even if he did engage the target (under the wall, per Troy's explanation), then he would get at least 4 FTE's, as he didn't pop off 5 rounds...Personally, since that bullet stopped at the wall, I would say 5 FTE's....Either way, you can't shoot 5 plates with 1 bullet...

If he shot 1 round at the star, from a viable shooting location, then I would say 4 FTE's...either way, there are 5 targets out there...We don't score it as 1 Texas Star, we score as 5 plates....

I was just asking if you can just issue a FTE or if you have to assign it to a target. I was thinking about a line of poppers a few days back, but a star works too.

I'm thinking if a shooter pops off seven rounds at the first in a row of poppers, and if the RO is certain of that, then FTSA penalties would be called for on the unengaged poppers.....

Come to think of it, I've imposed those on myself in the past, letting an RO know that I never got to plates 2-4 in an array.....