Loves2Shoot Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Nik, That is not consistent with your other opinions, is it? Since targets behind a target definitely meet that "shoot at" requirement. Hmmm, I think you really need to think about what you just said. You would insist a reshoot and no FTE behind a wall, but not a knock down target? Schutzenmeister, That makes sense from a logic stand point, but could a competitor argue since you don't know which targets weren't shot at, you can't score a FTE on any of the targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 [...] Schutzenmeister, That makes sense from a logic stand point, but could a competitor argue since you don't know which targets weren't shot at, you can't score a FTE on any of the targets? He can argue that the sky was pink and interfered with his red dot ... I doubt either argument would prevail. It's no different from firing one shot at three paper targets (missing them all) and moving on. I would score 3 x 2M and 2FTE. If he wants to argue I don't know which one he shot at, I'd have him tell me. If he says he didn't shoot at ANY of them (i.e., just dumped a round downrange, by his description), I'd change the call to 3FTE. The shooter will not win such an argument, and no arb committee is likely to overturn the call. Again ... I will not re-enter the "under the wall" aspect of the question further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 See, that makes 100% sense to me, and I knew there had to be an instance where you could "shoot at" targets and still get FTE's. I'm glad Nik pointed out that he would score FTE's on targets that were behind an impenetrable falling target, since there is a target that stops the bullets before they can hit the targets behind it and "shoot at" doesn't count for engaging those targets in that case even though the rounds were fired in the direction of the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Nik, That is not consistent with your other opinions, is it? Since targets behind a target definitely meet that "shoot at" requirement. Hmmm, I think you really need to think about what you just said. You would insist a reshoot and no FTE behind a wall, but not a knock down target? Sorry -- I was thinking about a line of poppers in the open..... Must not have understood your or the original post about the Star.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I'm glad Nik pointed out that he would score FTE's on targets that were behind an impenetrable falling target, since there is a target that stops the bullets before they can hit the targets behind it and "shoot at" doesn't count for engaging those targets in that case even though the rounds were fired in the direction of the targets. Now I get what you meant -- you meant in a line front to back...... I have personal experience with steel in a line, left to right, and a cracked slide..... After 11 rounds and 1 hit, I stopped. I hadn't engaged more than two pieces of steel, out of 5 or 6. The RO wanted to call it 1 hit, the rest mikes, no penalties. I had him change his call to the appropriate number of FTSA penalties, since I only engaged the two left-most pieces of steel.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I'm glad Nik pointed out that he would score FTE's on targets that were behind an impenetrable falling target, since there is a target that stops the bullets before they can hit the targets behind it and "shoot at" doesn't count for engaging those targets in that case even though the rounds were fired in the direction of the targets. Now I get what you meant -- you meant in a line front to back...... I have personal experience with steel in a line, left to right, and a cracked slide..... After 11 rounds and 1 hit, I stopped. I hadn't engaged more than two pieces of steel, out of 5 or 6. The RO wanted to call it 1 hit, the rest mikes, no penalties. I had him change his call to the appropriate number of FTSA penalties, since I only engaged the two left-most pieces of steel.... Ahhh ... It's wonderful being honest enough to ask for more penalties when you've zeroed the stage already! (Said with a loving smile as I know you're honest enough to ask for the penalties either way!) Serious question: I have RARELY seen a stacked array of steel as you describe where there wasn't some small piec of each distant steel visible SOMEWHERE around the steel in front. Were these actually THAT well hidden? (BTW - I HATE such arrays. The make fast shooters drill them down (unless they're FF Poppers) and do nothing to distinguish between good shooters and great shooters. If anything, they create unsafe situations with skips from drilling them down! If they're FF, then it almost becomes a FT CoF ... not quite, but almost.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Serious question: I have RARELY seen a stacked array of steel as you describe where there wasn't some small piec of each distant steel visible SOMEWHERE around the steel in front. Were these actually THAT well hidden? (BTW - I HATE such arrays. The make fast shooters drill them down (unless they're FF Poppers) and do nothing to distinguish between good shooters and great shooters. If anything, they create unsafe situations with skips from drilling them down! If they're FF, then it almost becomes a FT CoF ... not quite, but almost.) Some of our local clubs like to bring out the big old donut shaped piece of steel every now and then. Through the hole, typically 5 or 6 plates are setup in line and they must be shot one at a time to make the one behind it visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 (edited) We have a big hard cover doughnut that people put in front of the row of poppers, so as a shooter, you basically have to shoot until you see daylight. You have to call you shots, because with a white steel doughnut and white poppers, you can't trust what you hear. We have a big mountain as a backstop, so it isn't really dangerous. LOL Skydiver, you typed faster than I did Edited August 5, 2011 by Loves2Shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Serious question: I have RARELY seen a stacked array of steel as you describe where there wasn't some small piec of each distant steel visible SOMEWHERE around the steel in front. Were these actually THAT well hidden? (BTW - I HATE such arrays. The make fast shooters drill them down (unless they're FF Poppers) and do nothing to distinguish between good shooters and great shooters. If anything, they create unsafe situations with skips from drilling them down! If they're FF, then it almost becomes a FT CoF ... not quite, but almost.) Some of our local clubs like to bring out the big old donut shaped piece of steel every now and then. Through the hole, typically 5 or 6 plates are setup in line and they must be shot one at a time to make the one behind it visible. OK ... Please, no one hand me my head. This is only a personal opinion, but I think that's lazy stage design. Don't mean to offend ... Sorry. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 OK ... Please, no one hand me my head. This is only a personal opinion, but I think that's lazy stage design. Don't mean to offend ... Sorry. Just my opinion. I've shot stages with that same presentation, and they were fun. It was also a bit devious (always good) because some shooters went off the sound of steel being struck, without realizing they were only hitting the donut, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 OK ... Please, no one hand me my head. This is only a personal opinion, but I think that's lazy stage design. Don't mean to offend ... Sorry. Just my opinion. I've shot stages with that same presentation, and they were fun. It was also a bit devious (always good) because some shooters went off the sound of steel being struck, without realizing they were only hitting the donut, Yeah Mark, but consider the following ... Poor to mediocre shooters are going to miss a lot and take a lot of time whether the targets are like this or "line abrest." Good to really good to outstanding shooters are going to get bunched up (time-wise) because they're waiting for a plate to fall and clear the way to the next plate (or popper.) It compresses the time-spread on shooters from roughly A to GM. At least that's been my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 We have a big hard cover doughnut that people put in front of the row of poppers, so as a shooter, you basically have to shoot until you see daylight. You have to call you shots, because with a white steel doughnut and white poppers, you can't trust what you hear. We have a big mountain as a backstop, so it isn't really dangerous. LOL Skydiver, you typed faster than I did Shouldn't the doughnut/hard cover be painted a different color? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Serious question: I have RARELY seen a stacked array of steel as you describe where there wasn't some small piec of each distant steel visible SOMEWHERE around the steel in front. Were these actually THAT well hidden? (BTW - I HATE such arrays. The make fast shooters drill them down (unless they're FF Poppers) and do nothing to distinguish between good shooters and great shooters. If anything, they create unsafe situations with skips from drilling them down! If they're FF, then it almost becomes a FT CoF ... not quite, but almost.) Some of our local clubs like to bring out the big old donut shaped piece of steel every now and then. Through the hole, typically 5 or 6 plates are setup in line and they must be shot one at a time to make the one behind it visible. OK ... Please, no one hand me my head. This is only a personal opinion, but I think that's lazy stage design. Don't mean to offend ... Sorry. Just my opinion. I don't know about the lazy part, but put it out 20 yards, and it sure does get interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 We have a big hard cover doughnut that people put in front of the row of poppers, so as a shooter, you basically have to shoot until you see daylight. You have to call you shots, because with a white steel doughnut and white poppers, you can't trust what you hear. We have a big mountain as a backstop, so it isn't really dangerous. LOL Skydiver, you typed faster than I did Shouldn't the doughnut/hard cover be painted a different color? There are some evil stages designers around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 We have a big hard cover doughnut that people put in front of the row of poppers, so as a shooter, you basically have to shoot until you see daylight. You have to call you shots, because with a white steel doughnut and white poppers, you can't trust what you hear. We have a big mountain as a backstop, so it isn't really dangerous. LOL Skydiver, you typed faster than I did Shouldn't the doughnut/hard cover be painted a different color? I'm too tired to look it up at the moment ... But I believe the only thing required to be a different color is a no shoot. Off the top of my head, if it's steel and steel, I don't recall any requirement the HC be a different color ... Though it's nice if it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 We have a big hard cover doughnut that people put in front of the row of poppers, so as a shooter, you basically have to shoot until you see daylight. You have to call you shots, because with a white steel doughnut and white poppers, you can't trust what you hear. We have a big mountain as a backstop, so it isn't really dangerous. LOL Skydiver, you typed faster than I did Shouldn't the doughnut/hard cover be painted a different color? There are some evil stages designers around here. Now I wanna come visit...... Sounds like fun.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 We have a "Tick-Tock" stage we set up sometimes. A large metal plate, with a 6" hole in the center, line up 5 targets behind the hole. The hole in the big metal plate has a hinge, with another plate blocking the hole. First shot, you have to knock the plate out of the hole...When that plate falls, the second plate "tick-tocks" back and forth across the hole...you have to time your shots between the plate swings...which if you take too long, it eventually stops, blocking all further shots at the targets.... Trick is, if you know you are gonna hit the plate with the first shot, shoot the second as fast as you can...the bullet will make it through before the plate swings the first time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 We have a "Tick-Tock" stage we set up sometimes. A large metal plate, with a 6" hole in the center, line up 5 targets behind the hole. The hole in the big metal plate has a hinge, with another plate blocking the hole. First shot, you have to knock the plate out of the hole...When that plate falls, the second plate "tick-tocks" back and forth across the hole...you have to time your shots between the plate swings...which if you take too long, it eventually stops, blocking all further shots at the targets.... Trick is, if you know you are gonna hit the plate with the first shot, shoot the second as fast as you can...the bullet will make it through before the plate swings the first time... OK ... 's advocate here! I shoot the plate opening the hole ... It goes down. I go on to shoot the rest of the CoF. (I'm assuming here this isn't the only target array.) I come BACK to this array and the swinging plate has blocked any hope of shooting the targets behind it. How would you score those targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 We have a "Tick-Tock" stage we set up sometimes. A large metal plate, with a 6" hole in the center, line up 5 targets behind the hole. The hole in the big metal plate has a hinge, with another plate blocking the hole. First shot, you have to knock the plate out of the hole...When that plate falls, the second plate "tick-tocks" back and forth across the hole...you have to time your shots between the plate swings...which if you take too long, it eventually stops, blocking all further shots at the targets.... Trick is, if you know you are gonna hit the plate with the first shot, shoot the second as fast as you can...the bullet will make it through before the plate swings the first time... OK ... 's advocate here! I shoot the plate opening the hole ... It goes down. I go on to shoot the rest of the CoF. (I'm assuming here this isn't the only target array.) I come BACK to this array and the swinging plate has blocked any hope of shooting the targets behind it. How would you score those targets? You assume incorrectly...When ever we have set it up, it is the only target in the array...I never said it was a USPSA match.... It's an outlaw steel match we run between friends...No paper, just steel and time... But, it is damn fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 You assume incorrectly...When ever we have set it up, it is the only target in the array...I never said it was a USPSA match.... It's an outlaw steel match we run between friends...No paper, just steel and time... But, it is damn fun! Well ... That DOES change the equation, doesn't it! I guess I just jumped to a conclusion based on the forum this is in ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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