Dot Flip

[user293]

I think its important to separate concept of rhythm vs recoil, although they are related.

Recoil per se if not controlled causes flip and excess dot movement.

Rhythm is how the gun feels and manifested by dot movement patterns, such as dot dipping or other instability, and speed of dot recovery to zero.

Rhythm is controlled by the interaction of the shooter and the gun. The usual suspects in bad rhythm, exemplified by dot dip, are mismatch of powder to gun (as in excess gas or powder that burns too slowly), comps, slide too heavy or spring too heavy, or bad grip.

Flip can be mitigated by some of same factors as rhythm, but getting back to OP’s question, what can you do besides powder to reduce flip? Two easiest things are to increase grip strength and recoil management with a thumbrest. In my experience, the thumb rest works the best. That will decrease flip dramatically to virtually no movement.

A properly tuned gun will not have dot leave center of scope and will be perfectly up and down which IMHO is best achieved with thumbrest.

And BTW 3 port comps work fine, I have tried many and settled on simple 3 port comp and dot hardly moves. Some great shooters like Jerry Barnhart and Chris Tilley have had excellent results with only 3 ports.

thats something i plan on getting real soon is a *thumb rest [generic]* thumb rest. ill try messing with the other stuff as well.

[CocoBolo]

Some good suggestions, in these posts.

First 90 degree mounts aren't just for ejection, I adopted early, while running 38SC found it much easier to make good head shots, avoid no shoots up close and forget about compensating for dot over barrel. You will find that the amount of dot movement over the same amount of gun movement is less because of just the plain old physics. Yep longer lever more travel, like the speed of those blades on the wind generatror. Besides that those upright mounts are just ugly. You seem to be good with the upright ugly as it is so that probably wouldn't help your issue.

I had a rather extended discussion of flip at DT with Bob (Brazos) and the summary of that is that holes make a gun flat and comps slow the slide down cutting recoil. You got plenty too much hole in the gun and the slide looked slow enough, so I'd work with the recoil spring, personally I run a 10# in my lightest guns (cone) and a 9# in the bull version. Throw a tungsten guide rod in it a see what hapens. I run aluminum in mine like the balance and weight for fast driving, sharp corners etc.

I find it odd that N105 didn't work well for you but maybe you just didn't use enough. One of my guns in Super shoots like crap till you get above 175pf then its a joy to shoot.

[user293]

yea coco i never really "pushed" the N105 with 115 gr bullets. i did need 10.7 Gr. of it to make major with a 124 gr MG! so i dont know if i can even get enough in the case to make major with a 115. N105 is super expensive, and about as hard to find around here as the 3n38. in my opinion, it felt just like n350. i did however, load up a string of 5 115's loaded with 11.2 gr of N105 cause i wasnt making major in my testing, and ran out of powder with the last 5. i shot it and it was LOUD. like rang my ears under my ear muffs loud. but the dot flip wasnt much at all, but still felt pretty close to my 124 Gr load of 10.7. i have 500 more 115's to try, but no more N105, maybe ill call and try to get ahold of some, but i havent tried and tested 3n38 hardcore yet.

[user293]

ok little update on my quest to find the "right" load in my gun. i just got my 4 lb jug of 3n38 form powder valley. i loaded up the rest of my 124 gr bullets, at 9.8 gr. it made major last time i tested and chronoed. its raining out so i didnt go test them, but i pretty much know what to expect. now i have about 350 115's left and decided to load them up with about 10.5 Gr just to see how they felt. but i loaded up some a little shorter than desired ( was shooting for 1.240 but was about 1.225) i just decided to take 3 and shoot them from the garage door outside and look at the flip. all i said was OMG. the dot didnt come close to leaving the glass, and i had a little girly grip on the gun. wasnt trying to hold it tight or anything, and it was GREAT. loud as heck but shot awesome. its a compressed load, and ill try my 124's friday and see how they compare side, by side to 115's. it makes sense i guess. 3n38 was made for super and hybrid BBl's. hope this helps some readers out!

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Another thing I have been playing with is the firing pin stop. I tried a different radius and also a machined flat. Just changing the stop I got a 2 pound reduction in the force required to cycle the slide using a pull gauge It also makes it alot easier to cycle the slide by hand. The dot flip was reduced but will see by how much soon. Thanks, Eric

[MoNsTeR]

Dot leaving the glass is a red herring. What matters is that it comes back when and where you expect it to.

[jjanglin]

Sometimnes forearm strength and grip strength exercises can help a lot more than you might think, just take a look

at younger shooters and some lady's , their guns tend to have a little more muzzle rise than some stronger folks.

Jim/Pa

Sailors

[BlueOvalBruin]

Hello: Another thing I have been playing with is the firing pin stop. I tried a different radius and also a machined flat. Just changing the stop I got a 2 pound reduction in the force required to cycle the slide using a pull gauge It also makes it alot easier to cycle the slide by hand. The dot flip was reduced but will see by how much soon. Thanks, Eric

+1. My beef with 1911 has been the super slug slide dynamics compared to my glocks. Once I put a generous radius on the FPS that went away. For me the radius starts almost at the firing pin hole. The sights seem to stay flat longer (helps me with shot calling) but overall flip seems to be the same.

[CocoBolo]

Hello: Another thing I have been playing with is the firing pin stop. I tried a different radius and also a machined flat. Just changing the stop I got a 2 pound reduction in the force required to cycle the slide using a pull gauge It also makes it alot easier to cycle the slide by hand. The dot flip was reduced but will see by how much soon. Thanks, Eric

+1. My beef with 1911 has been the super slug slide dynamics compared to my glocks. Once I put a generous radius on the FPS that went away. For me the radius starts almost at the firing pin hole. The sights seem to stay flat longer (helps me with shot calling) but overall flip seems to be the same.

Eric - All of my 1911 and 2011 guns have the firing pin stop radiused, I thought everyone did that. I use to struggle with the rcoil and flip issue, but I found that once you get a load that is comfortable to shoot, I've had loads that actually hurt to shoot, any way when I shoot now I just focus on what I need to focus on, the target and the dot. Once focused there is no noies from the gun and there is no recoil or flip. I don't use a death grip and if my wrists are locked who knows I'm focused on the task at hand. When I'm just shooting to check the dot or a load I do notice that the dot when pointed at the A-Zone center will rise to the top of the A-Zone then come back down. Not long ago I shot my 45 with some 230 ball in a match, I did real well till I started paying attention to the noise and the recoil and trying to control it, as if you could stop the wind, and then the game fell apart, Eric you old haunt Corpus Christi. Wayne shot my gun with his eyes closed and shot several as he calls them double taps, all the hits were in the A Zone, and I can't do that with my eyes open.

I recently added a *thumb rest [generic]* to two of my open guns, but I have only shot one match with it, I will say I'm likeing it. Care just needs to be taken not to steer the gun in recoil with the thumb, a neutral grip and it goes up then down in a staight and predictable line. I'm still shooting that dirty reverse temp sensative Silhouette and still like it best.

Guns recoil get over it, focus on the shooting.

[eric nielsen]

Someone already mentioned the 3-port comp you have may be a little short. Personally I like 4 "up" chambers as a minimum and side-vented chambers after that, if you like. Especially when shooting 9.5 to 11.5 grains of (any) powder. Yes the Hybrid ports will rob some of the gas that normally expands in the comp, but it's not taking a 4th or even a 5th port down to nothing. Bedell, Brazos, and EGW all make proven, effective comps.

You might want to weigh your slide. Someone may have a very specific recommendation for you but in general I always notice more dot kick-up if an Open slide is much above 11oz. My STI and Caspian HiCap both had slides that weigh 10.5 oz. I never shot anyone's gun that I liked better than those two. Radius on the FPS is good, mainspring between 17 and 20, recoil spring between 9 and 12. Sometimes the stronger recoil spring flips the gun a little more but drops it down with more "all-by-itself" effect & lets you shoot faster. I like a 9-lb slide spring, 18-lb hammer spring.

Have one of the better shooters at your club check your grip. They can tell pretty quickly whether you set your left wrist or not. If you haven't seen someone demonstrate a set wrist with wiggling fingers, ask. It can be a big light-bulb-goes-on moment for shooting quickly.

[user293]

Ok thank you eric ill have someone check my grip next time im out. And i know my gunsmith told me my spring weights when i first took the gun home, but since i havent put more than 2500 rounds through it, i dont wanna go changing stuff quuye yet. But i can give him a call and try some different stuff. Ill keep this thread in mind.

[hal1955]

The only gun I ever shot that had ZERO flip was a 9x40 using 125's and 15 grains of H110 and a comp with 5 ports on top and two on each side at about 1550 fps. If I squeezed the gun too hard it would actually flip down.

[fireboltxl]

If you have a load picked out now, you need to go and run the Burkett Timing Drill. I really think that this helps the shooter get a better feel for the cadence of the gun and feel. You should run this drill every time you change something on the gun.

[gng4life]

If you have a load picked out now, you need to go and run the Burkett Timing Drill. I really think that this helps the shooter get a better feel for the cadence of the gun and feel. You should run this drill every time you change something on the gun.

Can you refresh my memory on the Timing Drill? I use to have all his DVDs but I sold them. Thanks

[XRe]

Looking at the video in the original post, you've got some technique issues in your basic shooting stance that are contributing to your flip issue, and no amount of mucking about with load or gun setup will fix that stuff. Watch your shoulders move backward and up on each shot - it's subtle, but telling. That small movement in your shoulders translates to a lot of perceived flip behind the gun.

On top of that, everyone could use work on their grip strength.

Those two things said, you've already discovered that switching to a slower powder will tend to help - greater effectiveness in the comp and ports means the gun will dwell longer before it unlocks and starts to move. Eric (Aircooled6racer) mentioned the FP stop - that's the second piece in setup. The shape of the FP stop will determine (in part) how much force it takes to overcome the mainspring and allow the slide to move rearward past the hammer. Mainspring weight is the other part of that factor. Finally, the recoil spring weight affects two pieces - the first is how much and at what rate the gun appears to rise after the slide is past the hammer but before the recoil spring plug bottoms out on the guide rod head (and, effectively, the frame) and the second is how much energy is bled off the slide (and stored in the recoil spring) before it stops when things bottom out against the frame. That last bit is important - that impact at the end of slide travel actually is a significant piece of what you see as flip.

Also realize that you can't actually see most of that. Your eyes don't work that quickly. It's a trick of the brain that allows us to think we're seeing the full cycle of the gun, but the reality is that we're only really perceiving bits and pieces of it and our brains are assembling a moving picture from those bits and pieces. One of these days, I'll get the blog articles finished up that I've been writing on these two subjects (what contributes to perceived flip, and how our eyes actually work and what that means to shooting an open gun)

[user293]

Yea Xre I know i got a few underlying issues i need to look at and fix, but i was just trying to fix the big things. ill work on the stuff you suggest. i just had a range trip today for practice, and it was very nice. gun was shooting great with the new 3n38 loads and i was making good hits, good splits, good times at further distances. im pretty happy with where my gun, and I are at before i head out to Area 3. im confident i can place pretty high in my class. i hope to get some good advice from fellow open shooters while im out there.

[fireboltxl]

If you have a load picked out now, you need to go and run the Burkett Timing Drill. I really think that this helps the shooter get a better feel for the cadence of the gun and feel. You should run this drill every time you change something on the gun.

Can you refresh my memory on the Timing Drill? I use to have all his DVDs but I sold them. Thanks

Timing drill is to fire "loaded" mag into burm with a very light grip, then another loaded mag with a medium grip, then another loaded mag with a firm grip. Pick the one you like. Then using that grip work splits. Again with loaded mags 2 sec splits, then 1.5 sec, then 1 sec, then .5 sec, then .25. Pay attention to grouping on target.

Target is 10 - 15 yards, and a loaded mag for me is about 15 rounds. Drill is about 200 rounds fired. I use three different targets to keep track of things.

www.doublealpha.biz/tip_burkett.htm#Timing Drills

Edited July 22, 2011 by fireboltxl

[Ofishl1]

Some good suggestions, in these posts.

First 90 degree mounts aren't just for ejection, I adopted early, while running 38SC found it much easier to make good head shots, avoid no shoots up close and forget about compensating for dot over barrel. You will find that the amount of dot movement over the same amount of gun movement is less because of just the plain old physics. Yep longer lever more travel, like the speed of those blades on the wind generatror. Besides that those upright mounts are just ugly. You seem to be good with the upright ugly as it is so that probably wouldn't help your issue.

I had a rather extended discussion of flip at DT with Bob (Brazos) and the summary of that is that holes make a gun flat and comps slow the slide down cutting recoil. You got plenty too much hole in the gun and the slide looked slow enough, so I'd work with the recoil spring, personally I run a 10# in my lightest guns (cone) and a 9# in the bull version. Throw a tungsten guide rod in it a see what hapens. I run aluminum in mine like the balance and weight for fast driving, sharp corners etc.

I find it odd that N105 didn't work well for you but maybe you just didn't use enough. One of my guns in Super shoots like crap till you get above 175pf then its a joy to shoot.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not trying to hi-jack the OP's thread, but I think my question is relevant,..........I am in the same boat here with a recent jump into OPEN a few weeks ago in 38sc in a Bedell shorty with a 7port comp, 9# spring, THE DOT...up and away on every shot, up to about 1:00 and gone......have only tried 3n37 (8.6), n340, (7.4) "Loudshot"@ (8.3), ...just bought 3n38, 350, and n105 are the last ones I am going to try...the only thing I have not seen mentioned here Coco ( and I respect your opinion and experience) is the length of the guns to the related loads and DOT-FLIP, are us "short" block guys at a real disadvantage with this DOT movement and may as well just forget about trying diff powders because the short rig will DOT-DART out of the screen no matter what??

O1

Edited March 17, 2012 by Ofishl1

[staudacher]

A little dot flip demo. With a couple guns that are setup different.

Recoil spring is too heavy on this one.

Edited March 17, 2012 by staudacher

[user293]

i like that this post is still going with some good info. ive settled in on a load and gear, and now im focusing on the shooting, and my technique.

[Ofishl1]

A little dot flip demo. With a couple guns that are setup different.

Recoil spring is too heavy on this one.

Thanks for that,..the first vid is a good example of what I see with my 38sc Bedell shorty,but a little higher even with the dot after the shot...that was good.

It looks like yours tops out right at the edge of the lens frame.

Is that a standard size gun, the STI 38?

[staudacher]

Is that a standard size gun, the STI 38?

It is a full size. One thing to take into consideration on the dot tracking videos is the fact that the shooters had to shoot while straddling a camera tripod and aim the gun through the cameras display. The dot is blurry on Brad’s gun because in order to see the dot in the camera’s display it has to be turned way up. Brad’s C-more lens needed cleaning and the bright dot on a dirty lens made for a blurry blob.

Brad's gun is basically identical to the 9mm major gun that is in the second video. Here is a side view of the 9mm gun seen in the video above.

Edited March 17, 2012 by staudacher

[gng4life]

Is that a standard size gun, the STI 38?

It is a full size. One thing to take into consideration on the dot tracking videos is the fact that the shooters had to shoot while straddling a camera tripod and aim the gun through the cameras display. The dot is blurry on Brad’s gun because in order to see the dot in the camera’s display it has to be turned way up. Brad’s C-more lens needed cleaning and the bright dot on a dirty lens made for a blurry blob.

Brad's gun is basically identical to the 9mm major gun that is in the second video. Here is a side view of the 9mm gun seen in the video above.

What software are you using to slow it down so much? Thanks

[staudacher]

What software are you using to slow it down so much? Thanks

The video was shot at 600 frames per second. The third video showing the recoil of the gun is unaltered other than triming out some of the dead time. The dot tracking videos were double framed in Corel Video Studio Pro this in effect slows the video playback down to 1/2 normal speed.

[staudacher]

.

Edited March 18, 2012 by staudacher