Barrettone Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 I have a situation that was posed to me by one of our club members, and need to know if a rule was violated or not. This member happened upon a range, and discovered that a gun (pistol) was laid in the safe area unnattended with the slide back. Upon investigating, it was found to be a competitors gun who was on another range scoring targets!!! Now, aside from being a bonehead move, is there anything that states that a person must always remain in contact or at least close quarters with his or her gun in a safe area??? I know that we ASSume that nobody would ever leave their competition gun unattended, but upon being summoned by the member about the situation, the individual merely shrugged his shoulders and took the gun to the range he was currently on and laid it in that safe area...and went back to what he was doing!!! Now, this is clearly a breach of ettiquette, but is there a rule? We can't possibly have a rule for EVERYTHING. Common sense dictates that we don't need a rule for someone shooting on their head, as it is not a REASONABLE thing to do, but, it is possible that an unnattended handgun could pose a safety risk even if unloaded. Of course the simple solution would be to load said gun into ones bag, and not turn it in to lost and found for a week or two (or not at all), but I digress... Fact is, IPSC shooters are as honest as the day is long in my opinion...CHEAP...but honest. So what is a club to do when a situation like this arises. I think to be cited for unsafe gunhandling, one must actually be handling the gun, and unsportsmanlike behavior is not really the case. Opinions people??? Barrettone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 As long as the owner knew where it was and was content to leave it on the safe area table I see no problem. "Now, this is clearly a breach of ettiquette" The only breach of ettiquette would be to violate the "If it is not yours do not touch it" rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 As long as the owner knew where it was and was content to leave it on the safe area table I see no problem. "it is possible that an unnattended handgun could pose a safety risk even if unloaded. " How is that possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 I've parked my blaster on a safe table when I needed it off for a bit. I do think it's polite to lock the slide open and stay somewhere nearby-- you run the risk of somebody playing with it that's not supposed to, but is it much different than a rifle or shotgun rack at a 3-gun match? I'm not always within arms-reach of my SG or rifle and it's pretty happy sitting in a rack communing with all the other long guns while I'm off taping or yakking. (This also presumes that the safe areas are set up such that people can't be directly down-range of them.. if not, then I wouldn't do it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 There is no (IPSC) rule against that. I personally wouldn't do it on a bigger match, but at my local club it is often done and nobody has a problem with it, including me. But my local club range is indoors, with locked outside doors during shooting, so no strangers can enter the range. And as others said, if the gun isn't yours, one should not touch it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Guess Garfield is right with respect of IPSC rule book. OTOH, I do believe that (having seen fellow teammates forgetting their bagged gun at restaurants after a match) the one Barrettone described is not the worst offence I have witnessed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 I do believe that (having seen fellow teammates forgetting their bagged gun at restaurants after a match) Skywalker, you think that is bad, see my post on the gun in the bathroom under What I Hate.... All, I think I saw TJ leave some guns sitting in a safety area at Area 3 last year. If I remember correctly, he had some weather problems trying to get to the match, and then the friendly TSA dudes managed to drop a couple of his guns on the floor, and broke the hammer (or sight) on one or more of his guns. Including of course, the gun he intended to shoot. He was tired, and had a couple of guns apart trying to come up with pieces to build a complete gun, and I think he walked away to get something. So a couple of TJ's guns were sitting in the safety area with no one watching over them. No harm, no foul. In fact, I felt terrible for him.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 (edited) There isn't a rule prohibiting this, and IMO, as long as it's sitting there on the table, the gun poses no particular risk. The same situation happened at last year's Area 3 Championship in MN. A competitor would just leave his empty, locked-open gun on the table at the safe area while he helped out on the stage. A couple of other shooters saw it, and commented to me (I was RM at that match), so I asked him about it, but purely from the standpoint of it possibly going missing. He said he wasn't concerned about it getting stolen, so if it didn't bother him, it didn't bother me. (Although it was a pain in the butt having to explain the situation to just about everyone who went to that safe area and brought it to my attention.) I guess it depends on your range, and the people who might be around while the match is going on. The only other problem I see, perhaps from an etiquette standpoint, is if the table space is limited, then leaving your gun there takes up space that other people might need. We're always looking for someplace to lay our bag, etc., or work on a pistol. But, bottom line, there isn't a rule against it. Troy Added: The competitor I was talking about wasn't TJ, BTW. Edited April 13, 2004 by mactiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 having seen fellow teammates forgetting their bagged gun at restaurants after a match Luca, Could those forgotten guns be caused by the Italian sparkling white wine that is consumed at the restaurant after the match? BTW, Denise and I had a great time at the post-match dinner! Arnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 On one range I shoot at, it is pretty much required to leave your gun in the safe area if you want to use the bathroom, since said facilities are beyond the "No weapons in holsters" region. The alternative would be bagging and putting away every time and if you are drinking a lot of water Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 having seen fellow teammates forgetting their bagged gun at restaurants after a match Luca, Could those forgotten guns be caused by the Italian sparkling white wine that is consumed at the restaurant after the match? BTW, Denise and I had a great time at the post-match dinner! Arnie Arnie, nope, no occurrence this year, but I can recall a match in 2001 or 2002 that had the above result for a couple of newbie teammates after...you guess it... The hilarious thing was that, one of my teammates spotted the bags before leaving the restaurant, recovered them, and was walking in the park lot furiously racking the slide and shouting "double alpha, double alpha..." until the owners "ate the leave" as we say in Italy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 I think this is a strange behaviour, even if it's not forbidden. I would never let my gun that way, I learned from the hard way, something like TJ. During a training session, I left my pistol on the table and it finished on the floor with rear sight first, aouch ! It was not at all on a corner of the table, but in the middle ! Now, If I have to RO, the gun goes directly in my bag. As for "forgotten guns" at the restaurant, I know a couple of shooters who were happy that someone picked their guns after they left. One just forgot to bag his pistol in a hurry at the safety, the other simply forgot to take it with him and phoned from his home at the range to see if "someone had found something on the range ?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Guys do it all the time, especially when shooting two guns. I don't see as it should pose any safety problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Loves2shoot wrote: "I don't see as it should pose any safety problems." Exactly. We all agree, rules are rules & have to be obeyed - 100% no exceptions. Only there is no rule against leaving a gun in the safe area. There are also areas not clearly governened by rules. In such cases, let common sense safety dictate. A good example: at my 1st big match (out of state sectional) I got to a stage, went under the stage tent & put my bag on the ground next to the stage picnic table (tabletop was full w/ other shooters bags). Nearby, out in the sun (maybe 6 to 9 feet) was a rifle rack w/ a sign on top "safe area" backed by a berm. No sooner had I sat down to load a mag when a shooter came up & said "You know you could get DQ'd right now for touching ammo in a safe area! Its unsafe & you better stop that!" I thought about that for a second, and said "Thank you for pointing out that rule to me. I happen to know that rule. Would you mind pointing out the safety area boundry?" He blinked at me and said "What?!?" I replied, "I am not inside the safe area, but if I were, then you would be right - loading magazines would present a safety problem." He said something along the lines of "a**hole" & wandered off (probably to complain to the MD). Had he only used a little common safety sense, I think the whole thing could have been avoided but I got the feeling he was one of those guys just looking to throw his weight around & tried quoting rules to do it. I try to ask myself first: is there really a safety problem here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hale Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 The same situation happened at last year's Area 3 Championship in MN. Perhaps it's a "Minnesota Nice" thing. I attended a classifier match there 2 weeks ago and there was always a number of guns sitting on the safe-area table...unattended. Head up to the saloon parking-lots of northern MN and most vehicles have a firearm inside...doors unlocked...in plain sight. I did it for 30+ years myself. I've noticed it's the same with rural North Dakota and areas of states as far away as Georgia. Location seems to have a great influence on the way firearms are secured. I've been all over this country and Canada, and the views of necessary securement seem to differ everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted April 18, 2004 Author Share Posted April 18, 2004 Thanks for the responses guys...I was merely concerned for the gun either going missing or the etiquette issue of the much-coveted table space being needlessly taken up as the gun could have been bagged if it was not to be in use for an extended period of time (ours tables are fairly small to begin with). As for safety, I also feel that a youngster (or inexperienced individual) could happen upon it, and a nasty slide-pinch could occur as well (note: gun was locked open). I just don't agree with leaving it unattended. I was just taught from a young age that you should ALWAYS maintain control of your gun, loaded or not...It is just part of the responsibility that goes with firearms ownership. I do however accept that if the competitor understands the risk they are taking, and are willing to accept the consequences, then it is on them. Thanks again for all your responses. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted April 18, 2004 Share Posted April 18, 2004 If a person is stupid enough that they want to leave their gun unattended, out in the open for anyone to steal, more power to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 18, 2004 Share Posted April 18, 2004 Hi guys, There's definitely no rule prohibiting a competitor from leaving their gun unattended on the table in the safety area however I agree that "unofficial" IPSC etiquette expects that competitors bag their guns and store them in their own range bag if they don't intend to retrieve their gun from the safety area within, say, 10 minutes. In other words it's a matter of courtesy (and security), not safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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