What if this happens

[h2osport]

the rule states "drawing a handgun while facing uprange," it doesnt say holstering a gun while facing up range, so you cant DQ him under 10.5.16, If the gun wasnt holstered with the safety off, or wasnt pointed farther than 3 feet from his feet while reholstering, or the gun broke 180 before he started reholstering I dont really see any grounds for a DQ.

Oh and always have a rulebook

For me the question was is the gun out of the holster after he broke the 180 turning back to the start position. If the trigger gaurd being completely out of the holster constitutes an nonholstered gun, then clearly he broke the 180 with an nonholstered gun. To be clear, he was facing completely up range and the trigger guard was still exposed. If the trigger guard is exposed is the gun out of the holster? Does starting to reholster a gun exempt you from breaking the 180?

And I would have had my rule book, but I have lent it to a new shooter who has not gotten his yet.

Randy

[Flexmoney]

the rule states "drawing a handgun while facing uprange," it doesnt say holstering a gun while facing up range, so you cant DQ him under 10.5.16, If the gun wasnt holstered with the safety off, or wasnt pointed farther than 3 feet from his feet while reholstering, or the gun broke 180 before he started reholstering I dont really see any grounds for a DQ.

Oh and always have a rulebook

Joe ... If the gun was out of the holster (per the definition of a draw), and he turned uprange prior to reholstering it, the shooter has by default broken the 180.

Remember the intro words to 10.5: Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

On my range, if you are facing up range* pretty much at any time, and the gun is in your hand rather than in your holster, you're goin' home. Sorry, but it seems pretty clear cut to me.

* as generally described in the Glossary

What rule would you issue the d q under?

It is about the muzzle, not facing...right?

[Flexmoney]

As I recall, the current rule is written such as it is because of popping the gun out of the holster a bit. There should be a thread on that here.

[whitedog]

According to op no 180 or anything, just facing up range and lifted his gun up in the holster. Where does 180 and turning and reholstering fit in any of this? Does it not just come down to the definition of "access"? And how is this situation not considered unsafe?????

[ima45dv8]

However limiting it may be in terms of amusement, let's get real for a brief moment. No one I know holding a timer is concerned about toothpicks. In the time I've been doing this I've yet to see a slender piece of wood intended to remove tasty BBQ from betwixt your teeth set off a round at a USPSA match. If it's happened, well. . .maybe I need to get out more. I've obviously led a sheltered life.

[from the Glossary] Draw . . .The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

Where the rule states, "...access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard...", I'm comfortable with measuring that by a finger.

I fought this battle at a state match a few years ago and even dug around to find the specific Front Sight issue where John Amidon succinctly clarified the issue (Volume 21, number 2, March/April 2004). That article was the result of the then-new proliferation of Kydex-type holsters (as in, BladeTech and it's brethren). Many people had developed the nervous habit of drawing their handgun just far enough to jam in back in and hear and feel the pop of the Kydex/plastic snapping back into the trigger guard. It became known as, "Popping A Pistol".

Short story, if the gun is drawn far enough from the holster to allow activation of the trigger mechanism by a finger. . . . .it's drawn. And if facing uprange, it's a DQ if committed in front of me and most people I know. Any CRO or RM that tries to overturn that call absent an Arbitration Committee won't have any easy go of it.

[GrumpyOne]

A toothpick was just an example....Any portion is not....Take an apple pie, slice it as thin as you want, it's still a portion, whether it's 1/16" of an inch wide or half the pie....It's like going into the back yard and trying to dig half a hole in the dirt...No matter how small the half a hole, it's still a hole...

By your definition, those with a solid or skeletonized trigger (as in many in 2011 guns), just popping it out of the holster would bare the back half of the trigger. Now we both know it is most probably not possible to engage the trigger with only that 1/16" of the trigger showing, but with the light sears and no slack on those triggers, a finger nail (Or a piece of stray Kydex, a burr on the holster, any stray piece of material) caught in the skeleton portion of the trigger could trip it..Not likely, but a possibility.

Now, in the case of something like a CZ Shadow, it obviously would have to be pulled up more than 1/16" of an inch to gain access to the trigger, but where do you draw the line? Ok, those of you with DA/SA guns can pull the gun 1- 1/4" from the holster with no DQ, but those with SA guns can't pull any amount, as it will expose part of the trigger........Occam's razor....So, the rule (IMO), was wrote to say that NO portion of the interior of the trigger guard, whether the trigger can be activated or not, should be visible (in this example, at least). You pull it, see light through it, that means a portion.....Bear in mind though, you may be able to see light through certain trigger guards on certain holsters when the gun is holstered, but it does not come into play until they actually draw the weapon, or make to draw the weapon...

[ima45dv8]

Take an apple pie, slice it as thin as you want, it's still a portion, whether it's 1/16" of an inch wide or half the pie....It's like going into the back yard and trying to dig half a hole in the dirt...No matter how small the half a hole, it's still a hole...

I'm sorry I missed the relevance. I'm talking about USPSA matches and playing with loaded guns; not gardening.

By your definition, those with a solid or skeletonized trigger (as in many in 2011 guns), just popping it out of the holster would bare the back half of the trigger. Now we both know it is most probably not possible to engage the trigger with only that 1/16" of the trigger showing, but with the light sears and no slack on those triggers, a finger nail (Or a piece of stray Kydex, a burr on the holster, any stray piece of material) caught in the skeleton portion of the trigger could trip it..Not likely, but a possibility.

"Probably not possible"? Your yardstick. Not mine. I go by what I see; not an predetermined 1/16" threshold.

And that's why you better not pull it in front of me. If I deem that you pulled it far enough "to allow activation of the trigger", your match is finished.

And just for the record, that doesn't matter whether you're facing uprange in a start position or just walking around playing taffy-pull anywhere off the shooting line. Pop that gun out of the holster and you'll likely be lamenting your match fee and travel expenses. Reference the Front Sight issue I cited.

Now, in the case of something like a CZ Shadow, it obviously would have to be pulled up more than 1/16" of an inch to gain access to the trigger, but where do you draw the line? Ok, those of you with DA/SA guns can pull the gun 1- 1/4" from the holster with no DQ, but those with SA guns can't pull any amount, as it will expose part of the trigger........Occam's razor....So, the rule (IMO), was wrote to say that NO portion of the interior of the trigger guard, whether the trigger can be activated or not, should be visible (in this example, at least). You pull it, see light through it, that means a portion.....Bear in mind though, you may be able to see light through certain trigger guards on certain holsters when the gun is holstered, but it does not come into play until they actually draw the weapon, or make to draw the weapon...

Did you even read what was written? That's not what it says. This ain't IDPA and I ain't looking for light between your holster and your belt. Owning both, I know the difference between a 1911 and a CZ, though it bears little on this issue.

I thought I was pretty clear. But if not...

Pull it far enough to allow activation of the trigger (in MY opinion), and you're done. You will be allowed to argue 1/16" to 1-1/4 inch all you want...in front of the Arbitration Committee.

[Singlestack]

I don't even care about how much access to the trigger there is. If you pull the gun far enough to free it from the holster's retention device, your done. Go explain it to the arb committee.

[sperman]

Mark,

Who's finger do we use as the gage? Does a guy with fat fingers get to pull his gun further out of the holster than someone with skinny little fingers? Do we have to start measuring shooters fingers at the chrono so we know just how far they can pull the gun out of the holster before they have "drawn" the gun?

[Joe4d]

the rule states "drawing a handgun while facing uprange," it doesnt say holstering a gun while facing up range, so you cant DQ him under 10.5.16, If the gun wasnt holstered with the safety off, or wasnt pointed farther than 3 feet from his feet while reholstering, or the gun broke 180 before he started reholstering I dont really see any grounds for a DQ.

Oh and always have a rulebook

Joe ... If the gun was out of the holster (per the definition of a draw), and he turned uprange prior to reholstering it, the shooter has by default broken the 180.

Remember the intro words to 10.5: Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

On my range, if you are facing up range* pretty much at any time, and the gun is in your hand rather than in your holster, you're goin' home. Sorry, but it seems pretty clear cut to me.

* as generally described in the Glossary

Other DQ's may apply, and that's why I said if the gun broke the 180 before reholstering it would be a 180 issue, Not a draw issue, And you cant DQ anyone for facing up range with a gun in there hand and call it a USPSA match, I do it all the time so do alot of people, some people run up range with a gun in there hand, as long as the barrel doesnt exceed 90 degrees to the median of the backstop you are good to go,

There is also a specific exception to the 180 rule for reholstering, basically the gun is pointed straight or nearly straight down while you turn. That too isnt unsafe and is allowed,

I wasnt at your match and didnt see the shooter, if the gun was up and he turned yes bad news trip to DQ, but I can see how it is perfectly possible to turn and holster and be perfectly safe and within the rules, it just all depends on when was the gun pointed straight down into the holster, The RO on the scene would have to make that call.

[mhs]

There is also a specific exception to the 180 rule for reholstering, basically the gun is pointed straight or nearly straight down while you turn. That too isnt unsafe and is allowed,

The exemption is only while you are facing downrange:

10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while

drawing or re-holstering.

[Joe4d]

good point, I also think we got messed up because now we have two scenrios in the thread, the first one the guy drew the gun while facing uprange, If he drew it far enough to meet definition of Draw then it was a clear word for word violation of 10.5.16,

The second scenerio the guy was facing down range and holstered and turned up range, that one isnt so clear, it isnt a 10.5.16 DQ, and depending on when he reholstered in relationship to the turn and if the safety was applied, it may or may not be a 180 DQ,

[racine]

I too witnessed this event. The fellow was using that old magnet type Hogue holster. Facing uprange, loaded, preparing to start when the RO stated "shooter ready." The shooter shakes his head no and grips his gun in preparation and slowly moves the gun up about 1/2" to make sure it wasn't locked then slid it back down. His finger was on the slide the whole time. The RO asks him to USC, and turns around to call another RO. The shooter has the weapon downrange now and reminds the RO to watch him USC. I was this shooter and I regret how much anxiety this has caused my fellow brethren... I have nothing to say except that I was focused on the stage and that I'm supremely sorry for this lapse.

Yesterday in my disbelief I checked how much I move the gun when I did this and yes it exposes 1/4" of the trigger area behind the trigger but the trigger area no less. The other RO did sternly warn me and others not repeat this again. I can only surmise that because the gun did not clear, did not expose the barrel, I was allowed to continue-but I would not have protested a DQ. How many times do shooters partially unholster their guns in preparation for starting? That was the reason the other RO suggested he re-consider a DQ, that some other shooters had done this that he had observed but wasn't the RO to stop. At that point he warned everyone present to avoid this. Facing downrange, are shooters not allowed to do a practice draw as I've seen happen??? Again, my apologies to all present-chalk this one up to experience and thank you for all your honest feedback.

DC

[Singlestack]

<snip> Facing downrange, are shooters not allowed to do a practice draw as I've seen happen???

Facing down range, after MR, yes.

[GrumpyOne]

Take an apple pie, slice it as thin as you want, it's still a portion, whether it's 1/16" of an inch wide or half the pie....It's like going into the back yard and trying to dig half a hole in the dirt...No matter how small the half a hole, it's still a hole...

I'm sorry I missed the relevance. I'm talking about USPSA matches and playing with loaded guns; not gardening.

Stop being obtuse....

By your definition, those with a solid or skeletonized trigger (as in many in 2011 guns), just popping it out of the holster would bare the back half of the trigger. Now we both know it is most probably not possible to engage the trigger with only that 1/16" of the trigger showing, but with the light sears and no slack on those triggers, a finger nail (Or a piece of stray Kydex, a burr on the holster, any stray piece of material) caught in the skeleton portion of the trigger could trip it..Not likely, but a possibility.

"Probably not possible"? Your yardstick. Not mine. I go by what I see; not an predetermined 1/16" threshold.

And that's why you better not pull it in front of me. If I deem that you pulled it far enough "to allow activation of the trigger", your match is finished.

And just for the record, that doesn't matter whether you're facing uprange in a start position or just walking around playing taffy-pull anywhere off the shooting line. Pop that gun out of the holster and you'll likely be lamenting your match fee and travel expenses. Reference the Front Sight issue I cited.

But by your definition, I'm welcome to walk by you all day long, popping it in and out, as long as I can't access the trigger,eh? Your yardstick, not mine....

Now, in the case of something like a CZ Shadow, it obviously would have to be pulled up more than 1/16" of an inch to gain access to the trigger, but where do you draw the line? Ok, those of you with DA/SA guns can pull the gun 1- 1/4" from the holster with no DQ, but those with SA guns can't pull any amount, as it will expose part of the trigger........Occam's razor....So, the rule (IMO), was wrote to say that NO portion of the interior of the trigger guard, whether the trigger can be activated or not, should be visible (in this example, at least). You pull it, see light through it, that means a portion.....Bear in mind though, you may be able to see light through certain trigger guards on certain holsters when the gun is holstered, but it does not come into play until they actually draw the weapon, or make to draw the weapon...

Did you even read what was written? That's not what it says. This ain't IDPA and I ain't looking for light between your holster and your belt. Owning both, I know the difference between a 1911 and a CZ, though it bears little on this issue.

I don't see what relevance (the Frontsite article) has to this issue...It's not in the rule book, nor is it in the DNROI rulings. And I'm pretty sure we've had a few modifications o the rules since 2004...

I own both as well, and perhaps you should read the definition of Draw again...Specifically the words "ANY" and "PORTION".

I thought I was pretty clear. But if not...

Pull it far enough to allow activation of the trigger (in MY opinion), and you're done. You will be allowed to argue 1/16" to 1-1/4 inch all you want...in front of the Arbitration Committee.

Let me put it in real simple words that you might be able to understand....We'll define the bold highlighted words from Websters Dictionary "Draw-The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard."

Any-1: one or some indiscriminately of whatever kind: a : one or another taken at random <ask any man you meet> b : every used to indicate one selected without restriction <any child would know that>

2: one, some, or all indiscriminately of whatever quantity: a : one or more used to indicate an undetermined number or amount <have you any money> b : all used to indicate a maximum or whole <needs any help he can get> c : a or some without reference to quantity or extent <grateful for any favor at all>

3a : unmeasured or unlimited in amount, number, or extent <any quantity you desire> b : appreciably large or extended <could not endure it any length of time>

Now, the one definition in bold is the definition we are looking for, as it most closely resembles the "Any" in the definiton of Draw-- "unmeasured or unlimited to quantity, number, or extent."

On to the word "portion" Websters defines it as such "1: an individual's part or share of something: as a : a share received by gift or inheritance b : dowry c : enough food especially of one kind to serve one person at one meal

2: an individual's lot, fate, or fortune : one's share of good and evil

3: an often limited part of a whole

Once again, the definition we are looking for is in bold, as it also most closely resembles the use of "portion" in the defintion of "Draw".

So, with the definition of "Any" being unmeasured, and the definition of "portion" being "an often limited part of the hole", that sounds to me decidedly like an umeasured amount (or umeasurable amount) of a very limited whole is how much the weapon can be lifted before a DQ, when drawn facing uprange.

Edited May 25, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[GrumpyOne]

Mark,

Who's finger do we use as the gage? Does a guy with fat fingers get to pull his gun further out of the holster than someone with skinny little fingers? Do we have to start measuring shooters fingers at the chrono so we know just how far they can pull the gun out of the holster before they have "drawn" the gun?

Very good point....Hence the words "ANY" and "PORTION" in the definition of DRAW...

[Singlestack]

Time Out