What if this happens

[GrumpyOne]

First, this actually happened....Shooting El Pres classifier. Shooter steps into the box, is told to make ready (which he does, loading his weapon, re-holstering, etc.), the turns to put his toes on the back board as per the WSB. In the process of this, he partially draws his weapon while facing uprange. Maybe an inch or so upwards, to see if the lock on his holster was dis-engaged. The RO at the time told him to stop, ULSC, and that he was DQ'd...The shooter stated he was just making sure his holster wasn't locked and discussion was started. Two RO's saw the incident, neither were certain of the rule regarding the incident, and called the CRO over, who after listening to the discussion, un DQ'd the shooter and allowed him to continue...Did they make the right call?

[sperman]

Did the shooter expose any portion of the interior of the trigger guard?

Draw - The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

If so, then I would say DQ per 10.5.16.

10.5.16 Drawing a handgun while facing uprange.

However, the ruling issued 11/08 sure does open a can of worms by including "after the start signal."

http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=38

Edited May 22, 2011 by sperman

[GrumpyOne]

I saw the entire thing unfold, but was 25-30 feet away. I do not know if any portion of the interior of the trigger guard was exposed, but looking at my holsters and weapons, I can hardly see how it couldn't have been. Even lifting mine 1/4" exposes the interior of the trigger guard....But he may have had a different style holster.....

Edited May 22, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[mactiger]

Seriously? If he picked it up an inch out of the holster to check if it was unlocked, while facing uprange, he drew, while facing uprange. Holsters that have locks don't cover much trigger even when the gun is bottomed out in the holster.

Also, unless the CRO saw the thing happen, he had nobusiness un-doing it.

Oh, and HELL NO they didn't make the right call.

Troy

(edited to vent a little)

Edited May 22, 2011 by mactiger

[Poppa Bear]

OK, I am not up to speed on all the variations of holsters out there so are there any that lock without the mechanism being discernible by the shooters finger? I shoot a CR Speed WSM II and will frequently feel the locking switch with my finger just to verify it is in the unlocked position. I have also on many occasions rocked it a few times as I placed the gun back into the holster after making ready just to check that the retention device is working properly before I remove my hand from the gun.

So are there any that lock and require the shooter to pull it a bit just to check that it is unlocked? This should not apply to any holster that has a light retention bump built into the holster because they require the use of a screw of some sort to set the tension. Something that should have been checked in the safety area.

My vote is for a DQ because he did not do this while facing down range but rather while he was facing up range.

[GrumpyOne]

Seriously? If he picked it up an inch out of the holster to check if it was unlocked, while facing uprange, he drew, while facing uprange. Holsters that have locks don't cover much trigger even when the gun is bottomed out in the holster.

Also, unless the CRO saw the thing happen, he had nobusiness un-doing it.

Oh, and HELL NO they didn't make the right call.

Troy

(edited to vent a little)

Mac, this was at the match I told you I was going to....

I read the rule as well, and I thought DQ, but I'm not an RO....and, I couldn't see from my position if the intertior of the trigger guard was clear/visible. This was a very experienced shooter....

And I don't think the CRO saw it happen, as I was standing beside him at the time....

[coldchar]

The definition of draw is access to the interior of the trigger guard. That implies the shooters fingers have access which means they can get inside.

The way this should play out is there is NO doubt in the RO's mind that the shooter's fingers can get into the guard and this be able to engage the trigger.

That is what the CRO should have done, pulled the RO aside, asked him if he was sure that the shooter could meet that test. If not, no DQ. One does not guess on a DQ.

Jim G

[GrumpyOne]

The definition of draw is access to the interior of the trigger guard. That implies the shooters fingers have access which means they can get inside.

The way this should play out is there is NO doubt in the RO's mind that the shooter's fingers can get into the guard and this be able to engage the trigger.

That is what the CRO should have done, pulled the RO aside, asked him if he was sure that the shooter could meet that test. If not, no DQ. One does not guess on a DQ.

Jim G

In the above, I agree with you, but you are implying that the access is by the fingers, where as the rules don't state that...Just that the interior is accessible...Could be accessible by a toothpick, but it's still accessible...In my mind, if it was pulled up, out of the holster, by 1/4", and you could slide a toothpick into the trigger guard, then that's accessible....it never says accessible by what....

[coldchar]

Gees, picky, picky, I assume you are just being the devils advocate. Have yet to see a shooter pull a trigger with a tooth pick.

Jim G

[GrumpyOne]

Saw a guy pull a trigger with a carrot in a movie once....Shoot 'Em Up....

[Poppa Bear]

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

Under this rule he could have checked his lock to his hearts content while facing downrange.

10.5.16 Drawing a handgun while facing uprange.

Here we get into the semantics of what is drawing your handgun, something that would not even be discussed if he would have turned back to facing downrange before he checked the lock of his holster. He was facing uprange when he attempted to draw the gun so DQ under 10.5.16.

Otherwise we institute a rule that allows for the use of slow motion cameras and instant replay so that we can verify that the trigger guard did not become available for even 1/1000 of a second.

[coldchar]

In one sense I agree, the shooter was not thinking and probably running on habit. Unfortunately we don't have a stupid shooter rule, too bad. That would be my favorite rule. However, the reality was he did what he did and we have to try to apply the rules to deal with the situation. The rule defines a draw as access. If access is not the shooters fingers than access could be stray atom.

Jim G

[sperman]

Access is what it is. There is no minimum amount of access required. There is certainly nothing in the rulebook that requires access by a finger. We have to apply the rulebook as written, not the way we think it should be written.

[Poppa Bear]

Maybe the proper decision here would have been to have the shooter face downrange and have the CRO/RM check their holster for coverage.

I have Bladetech holsters for my Single Stack gun and my Glock 34 Production gun. Both holsters start to uncover the trigger guard as soon as I start pulling the gun out because both holsters leave the very back of the trigger guard exposed.

The Glossary says:

Draw . . . . . . . . . . . . .The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged

from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

So as soon as I try to remove the guns at all I have drawn the gun.

Edited to add:

I checked my box of holsters and every one leaves the back of the trigger guard exposed to some degree. In most cases we are talking the radius of the trigger guard but any movement just exposes more of it.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Poppa Bear

[Skydiver]

Access is what it is. There is no minimum amount of access required. There is certainly nothing in the rulebook that requires access by a finger. We have to apply the rulebook as written, not the way we think it should be written.

So this holster modification of the WSM II modification to give a more stable hold on Tanfoglio's is illegal:

(pictures takes from this thread: http://www.brianenos...ndpost&p=987112 )

[ Why even do this modification on the WSM II in the first place? Without doing this mod, there is actually enough slop where the gun can be lifted up about while still locked and there is access to the trigger by a long enough finger nail, or small enough pinky. ]

Edited May 23, 2011 by Skydiver

[bluenite]

That wsm dose a good job of covering the trigger guard.

The ones I use the most I can fit my finger in the triger guard when the gun is fully seated in the holster.

Leonard

[Nik Habicht]

In one sense I agree, the shooter was not thinking and probably running on habit. Unfortunately we don't have a stupid shooter rule, too bad. That would be my favorite rule. However, the reality was he did what he did and we have to try to apply the rules to deal with the situation. The rule defines a draw as access. If access is not the shooters fingers than access could be stray atom.

Jim G

It's not just fingers that can pull triggers -- which is most likely why the rule was written the way it was....

[Joe4d]

10.5.16 doesnt list any exceptions, if the gun came up high enough to meet definition of draw, then I would have turned him around ULSC, sorry sir you are DQ'd under 10.5.16, there wouldnt be anything to discuss. I'd call for next shooter, If the CRO over ruled me I would have handed him the timer and told him he just lost an RO, and went to find the RM/MD.

[h2osport]

Two instances similar. I was roing a newer shooter a month ago, and he kept doing the "pull the gun up a bit" habit after loaded(Gh*st holster). When we got to the stage with facing uprange start, I told him before LAMR that if he pulled his gun up like he had been doing, he would be DQ'd. He did not pull the gun up.

Had another incident where start position was facing uprange with item in hand. Item had to be dropped in bucket uprange from shooter. Shooter drops item, turns and draws, but misses bucket. Reholsters gun while turning to pick up item and put it into the bucket. Muzzle was in bladetech holster, but the rest of the gun was out while turning. He was completely facing uprange when the gun finally made it back into the holster. I could clearly see the whole of the trigger guard while he was past the 180. I dq'd him, and the CRO over ruled me. I was sure that the rule for the draw was as stated above "The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged

from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard", but did not have a rule book on me.

Now I know.

Randy

[Joe4d]

the rule states "drawing a handgun while facing uprange," it doesnt say holstering a gun while facing up range, so you cant DQ him under 10.5.16, If the gun wasnt holstered with the safety off, or wasnt pointed farther than 3 feet from his feet while reholstering, or the gun broke 180 before he started reholstering I dont really see any grounds for a DQ.

Oh and always have a rulebook

[Schutzenmeister]

the rule states "drawing a handgun while facing uprange," it doesnt say holstering a gun while facing up range, so you cant DQ him under 10.5.16, If the gun wasnt holstered with the safety off, or wasnt pointed farther than 3 feet from his feet while reholstering, or the gun broke 180 before he started reholstering I dont really see any grounds for a DQ.

Oh and always have a rulebook

Joe ... If the gun was out of the holster (per the definition of a draw), and he turned uprange prior to reholstering it, the shooter has by default broken the 180.

Remember the intro words to 10.5: Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

On my range, if you are facing up range* pretty much at any time, and the gun is in your hand rather than in your holster, you're goin' home. Sorry, but it seems pretty clear cut to me.

* as generally described in the Glossary

[coldchar]

The issue here is how we define access. Some of you are defining access essentially as any daylight visible in the inside of the trigger guard rather than a shooters finger able to get into it. If this was meant, how does one square that definition with:

5.2.7.4 A holster which does not completely prevent access to, or activation

of, the trigger of the handgun while holstered.

Under the interpretation I see being liked by some, you would have to DQ someone for just touching the handle of or even having a gun which is in a holster which complies with 5.2.7.4. A holster is okay that blocks access to the trigger.

Jim G.

[whitedog]

Disclaimer..not a uspsa ro, however am a nra ro. If you are facing uprange and lift that gun up in the holster prior to being told to by verbal command or start signal, you are done. Uprange starts can be tricky and I believe safety is paramount. And no, I don't care what the definition of "access" is, an uprange start is not the place for semantics. Rather an arb than an ambulance.

And for the cro to over ride in this case is almost unbelievable.

Edited May 24, 2011 by whitedog

[coldchar]

I hear what you are saying, and have the greatest respect for NRA rule structure, NRA RO's and enjoy participating in NRA shooting events.

However, I am a USPSA CRO and a match Director . I believe the USPSA rules are adequate to deal with with safety issue that comes up while still allowing shooters some leeway. What has impressed me is how the rules interrelate to each other to get the job done.

Jim G.

[whitedog]

I agree and like the leeway uspsa rules provide, however I just can't agree in this case. This situation can get ugly fast and better to err on the side of safety. If I read the rule correctly, if there is access to the trigger guard, then dq. Hence .001" would be enough for me in this case.