Scoring questions

[Flexmoney]

How about a match question?

These are all on the Delta line (outer perf) of the targets.

Like the commercial says...it makes sense if you don't think about it.

Here is one target:

And, here is the same target with a close up:

Another target:

And, a closeup of this one:

If you'd like more details, ask and I'll try to fill in the blanks.

[Nik Habicht]

So how were these scored?

[bluenite]

well the bottom one is easy, it hit wood first and no hole in paper.

Must make a hole in paper to score.

Top one I am not shure about can't see grease ring and looks to have hit wood first.

Penetrating sticks is covered (they don't count) but glancing off a stick?

I had it wrong on that. 9.1.7

Edited May 17, 2011 by bluenite

[Flexmoney]

well the bottom one is easy, it hit wood first and no hole in paper.

Must make a hole in paper to score.

Top one I am not shure about can't see grease ring and looks to have hit wood first.

Penetrating sticks is covered (they don't count) but glancing off a stick?

Neither hit wood first. Nor would it matter, as we have a rule that specifically states that target sticks don't stop bullets like normal props. Bullets can go on to score through a target stick. (those are target sticks in the pics) They can glance of the target stick or go all the way through...either way, they count.

[JakeMartens]

2 mike

what I see, on the first target you see the grease ring out side of the perf, so if overlaying starting at the end of that it wouldn't touch the perf

on the second the grease ring starts at the perf, but doesn't penetrate the target

[bluenite]

yep 9.1.7 on the sticks.

9.5.9 is about making a hole in the target.

[alpha-charlie]

Is a graze wound a hit? If it is, then the bullet obviously hit the target even though it didn't make a hole so I'd say Delta's all around. If it has to make a hole then I guess the shooter is s.o.l.

[Flexmoney]

2 mike

what I see, on the first target you see the grease ring out side of the perf, so if overlaying starting at the end of that it wouldn't touch the perf

on the second the grease ring starts at the perf, but doesn't penetrate the target

I've been meaning to write an article for Front Sight on overlays (Troy did a good one a few years back).

You wouldn't start your overlay on the edge of the grease ring. What you'd want to do is match the arc of the circle of the overlay to the arc of the circle of the hit in question. Grease rings are almost always smaller than your overlay...the hit will fit fully inside the overlay. The cardboard has an elastic quality to it, so it sucks back to a smaller hole than the bullet that hit it.

I haven't measured wad-cutters, but have got the calipers out and measured the hole that remains for 9 and 40, jacketed.

Anyway...my take on the two pics is that the bullet does touch the perf in both instances. That was the consensus at the range too...with a handful of us giving it the stink-eye.

-----------------------------------

Thanks for the posts that help to clarify the issue (I knew I'd leave some details out by accident...vs. the ones left out on purpose).

OK...you guys are hitting on what we discussed and thought was key to this at the match. If you take it as given that the bullets touch the perf in both instances (our observation from being hands on), and the bullets didn't hit anything that would stop them from scoring, then the issue might be:

9.5.9 Hits upon scoring or no-shoot paper targets, must completely pass

through the target to be considered a valid hit and count for score or

penalty

So, are they both Deltas? Both Mikes? Is one a Delta and the other a Mike?

Why?

[bluenite]

I have only been a RO for a few days and as I have proved only 50% of what I remember is right, but in my defense that stick is black and black is hard cover.

I think 9.5.9 on the second "mike", but can't make a call on the first.

[ima45dv8]

I've been meaning to write an article for Front Sight on overlays (Troy did a good one a few years back).

You wouldn't start your overlay on the edge of the grease ring. What you'd want to do is match the arc of the circle of the overlay to the arc of the circle of the hit in question. Grease rings are almost always smaller than your overlay...the hit will fit fully inside the overlay. The cardboard has an elastic quality to it, so it sucks back to a smaller hole than the bullet that hit it.

I agree about the cardboard snapping back, but over cold adult-beverages at the Gator Classic last year, Troy said he doesn't apply that "spring back" standard to edge hits

(TROY -- that's what you said, right?).

His premise was that the spring-back only happens with full diameter hits, but the cardboard would only fold away a bit with a non-full diameter hit. Edge hits thus get scored on the actual placement of the grease ring; not on where it would be for a full contact/ full diameter hit in the overlay circle. If the grease ring doesn't touch the perf, it doesn't count for score.

I had never considered that, but it makes some sense.

....(I knew I'd leave some details out by accident...vs. the ones left out on purpose).

As usual...

( )

OK...you guys are hitting on what we discussed and thought was key to this at the match. If you take it as given that the bullets touch the perf in both instances (our observation from being hands on), and the bullets didn't hit anything that would stop them from scoring, then the issue might be:

9.5.9 Hits upon scoring or no-shoot paper targets, must completely pass through the target to be considered a valid hit and count for score or penalty

So, are they both Deltas? Both Mikes? Is one a Delta and the other a Mike?

Why?

Based on what I see in the photos the bullets don't seem to have penetrated the targets.

Two mikes, as 45shooter said.

[aztecdriver]

I agree about the cardboard snapping back, but over cold adult-beverages at the Gator Classic last year, Troy said he doesn't apply that "spring back" standard to edge hits

(TROY -- that's what you said, right?).

His premise was that the spring-back only happens with full diameter hits, but the cardboard would only fold away a bit with a non-full diameter hit. Edge hits thus get scored on the actual placement of the grease ring; not on where it would be for a full contact/ full diameter hit in the overlay circle. If the grease ring doesn't touch the perf, it doesn't count for score.

I had never considered that, but it makes some sense.

Would it not still depend on matching the radius? I mean, a bullet still is it's size. We can't know the dynamics of what an edge hit is going to do or did do on a target. If the radius that is left on an edge target hit is smaller (as is the case in the full diameter "shrinkage" hit), then should we not the actual radius should have been with an overlay? This is a bit of news to me and I want to make sure I score it right next time around.

[Dwight Springthorpe]

Two Delta - it appears that the grease ring is touching the perf (line between scoring zones) on both. That is all that is required.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Dwight Springthorpe

[mda]

One delta, one mike. First bullet touched the perf and penetrated the target. Second one did not penetrate the target so mike.

Target sticks do not exist no mater what color they are.

MDA

[racerba]

One delta, one mike. First bullet touched the perf and penetrated the target. Second one did not penetrate the target so mike.

Target sticks do not exist no mater what color they are.

MDA

I don't see the penetration on the first target...am I missing something?

I call 2 mikes...due to the fact that there was no penetration...

Edited May 17, 2011 by racerba

[Flexmoney]

I agree about the cardboard snapping back, but over cold adult-beverages at the Gator Classic last year, Troy said he doesn't apply that "spring back" standard to edge hits

(TROY -- that's what you said, right?).

His premise was that the spring-back only happens with full diameter hits, but the cardboard would only fold away a bit with a non-full diameter hit. Edge hits thus get scored on the actual placement of the grease ring; not on where it would be for a full contact/ full diameter hit in the overlay circle. If the grease ring doesn't touch the perf, it doesn't count for score.

I had never considered that, but it makes some sense.

No need to apply a hard and fast rule to it. The proof is on the paper (cardboard). When I stick the overlay on it and compare the arcs...that tells the story one way or the other. I know I have seen edge hits that have a decreasing arc (compared to the overlay). Those targets above would be a likely candidate...as the sticks on them provide a good backer.

(I started this drift, didn't I...LOL)

Would it not still depend on matching the radius? I mean, a bullet still is it's size. We can't know the dynamics of what an edge hit is going to do or did do on a target. If the radius that is left on an edge target hit is smaller (as is the case in the full diameter "shrinkage" hit), then should we not the actual radius should have been with an overlay? This is a bit of news to me and I want to make sure I score it right next time around.

Yes. That is how I see it. And...have seen it.

[Flexmoney]

Just for added clarity... again, please assume the perf was touched on both targets. I posted the question (at least I meant to) as an exercise for after that determination was made.

I probably won't be able to get back to this until later, so here is a bit more info... (if it matters? )

- The first target was a swinger, shot face on.

- The second target was a drop-turner, shot a little early.

I don't think we will find any rules which allow for differentiation between the two, but maybe somebody will find something that might apply?

- It is my opinion, and I believe the consensus of those that were there on the ground, that the first target didn't have hole in it. (we might have had an opposing opinion from the shooter... )

[Lee King]

Since both were partial diameter hits, can we apply "penetration"?

[Mark R]

The first target clearly has scrambled the perf...thus a hit.

The second target is on the stick with a little of it over the edge giving no support to the cardboard, and since there is no edge support, and being hit on the edge of the cardboard which would allow flexing of the cardboard and that the grease ring is clearly on the inside edge of the perf, I would call it also a hit. IMO. Put that same hit on the line between A and C zone...you'd most likely give it an A hit.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Mark R

[racerba]

Since both were partial diameter hits, can we apply "penetration"?

good point...had there been more of the target, it probably would have penetrated...

But we don't make a decision based on "would have-could have" do we? The target is either penetrated or it isn't.

[Nik Habicht]

Two Delta - it appears that the grease ring is touching the perf (line between scoring zones) on both. That is all that is required.

2 Mikes. You need bullet holes that pass completely through the target for score on either shoot or no-shoot targets, per 9.5.9.

I don't see a hole in either target -- the first looks like the bullet might have folded and torn the edge, but there's still no bullet hole that punched through....

The second target is in better shape than the first....

[Nik Habicht]

The first target clearly has scrambled the perf...thus a hit.

The second target is on the stick with a little of it over the edge giving no support to the cardboard, and since there is no edge support, and being hit on the edge of the cardboard which would allow flexing of the cardboard and that the grease ring is clearly on the inside edge of the perf, I would call it also a hit. IMO. Put that same hit on the line between A and C zone...you'd most likely give it an A hit.

I'd expect there's be a hole in the A/c line.....

[Poppa Bear]

I vote for 2 mikes. Both bullets actually impacted outside of the target while leaving a grease ring on the target. Due to the size of the non-scoring perforation border, the fact that there is no perforation of the target by the bullet makes it a mike.

This would be much like the shooter getting an edge hit that creases the target on a drop turner. Whether the crease is bowing the target towards the front or towards the back and leaves a grease mark all the way across the target it is still a miss if it did not pass through the target from front to back.

[MarkCO]

There is no evidence of a ricochet, the bullets left evidence of the shot being from the front, as opposed to the rear and the marks in the scoring area are not radial tears. In chapter 9, the word "hit" is often used w.r.t scoring. So that leads one to call them a "hit" and score as Ds. However, 9.5.9 is pretty clear about passing through the target and still uses the word "hit" to describe such a shot indicating that a hit can be on a target without passing through the target. I would score both of those "hits" as a miss based on 9.5.9.

[mactiger]

2 mike

what I see, on the first target you see the grease ring out side of the perf, so if overlaying starting at the end of that it wouldn't touch the perf

on the second the grease ring starts at the perf, but doesn't penetrate the target

I've been meaning to write an article for Front Sight on overlays (Troy did a good one a few years back).

You wouldn't start your overlay on the edge of the grease ring. What you'd want to do is match the arc of the circle of the overlay to the arc of the circle of the hit in question. Grease rings are almost always smaller than your overlay...the hit will fit fully inside the overlay. The cardboard has an elastic quality to it, so it sucks back to a smaller hole than the bullet that hit it.

I haven't measured wad-cutters, but have got the calipers out and measured the hole that remains for 9 and 40, jacketed.

Anyway...my take on the two pics is that the bullet does touch the perf in both instances. That was the consensus at the range too...with a handful of us giving it the stink-eye.

-----------------------------------

Thanks for the posts that help to clarify the issue (I knew I'd leave some details out by accident...vs. the ones left out on purpose).

OK...you guys are hitting on what we discussed and thought was key to this at the match. If you take it as given that the bullets touch the perf in both instances (our observation from being hands on), and the bullets didn't hit anything that would stop them from scoring, then the issue might be:

9.5.9 Hits upon scoring or no-shoot paper targets, must completely pass

through the target to be considered a valid hit and count for score or

penalty

So, are they both Deltas? Both Mikes? Is one a Delta and the other a Mike?

Why?

They are both Mikes, as neither one penetrated the cardboard.

Troy

[mactiger]

I've been meaning to write an article for Front Sight on overlays (Troy did a good one a few years back).

You wouldn't start your overlay on the edge of the grease ring. What you'd want to do is match the arc of the circle of the overlay to the arc of the circle of the hit in question. Grease rings are almost always smaller than your overlay...the hit will fit fully inside the overlay. The cardboard has an elastic quality to it, so it sucks back to a smaller hole than the bullet that hit it.

I agree about the cardboard snapping back, but over cold adult-beverages at the Gator Classic last year, Troy said he doesn't apply that "spring back" standard to edge hits

(TROY -- that's what you said, right?).

His premise was that the spring-back only happens with full diameter hits, but the cardboard would only fold away a bit with a non-full diameter hit. Edge hits thus get scored on the actual placement of the grease ring; not on where it would be for a full contact/ full diameter hit in the overlay circle. If the grease ring doesn't touch the perf, it doesn't count for score.

I had never considered that, but it makes some sense.

....(I knew I'd leave some details out by accident...vs. the ones left out on purpose).

As usual...

( )

OK...you guys are hitting on what we discussed and thought was key to this at the match. If you take it as given that the bullets touch the perf in both instances (our observation from being hands on), and the bullets didn't hit anything that would stop them from scoring, then the issue might be:

9.5.9 Hits upon scoring or no-shoot paper targets, must completely pass through the target to be considered a valid hit and count for score or penalty

So, are they both Deltas? Both Mikes? Is one a Delta and the other a Mike?

Why?

Based on what I see in the photos the bullets don't seem to have penetrated the targets.

Two mikes, as 45shooter said.

That is indeed what I said, and how I score them.

Troy