Flexmoney Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Coaching is not against the rules at level 1 matches??? That didn't take long. LOL I had all the rules copied in and was going to post them (and the apparent conflict). If one is going to coach, then no need trying to get there by trick means...just tell the shooter they aren't loaded up. But, where do you stop? (I'm a GM...are you going to coach me? Why not?) And, what do you do about the clear wording in: 8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 #1, I would point my hand to the starting position- then once they are there I would give the Make Ready command. #2, They will learn after they do this once. If they don't get it after the 2nd or 3rd time- I'd probably wonder what they are thinking but it's not my problem... and I'd be lying if I told you I wouldn't be chuckling inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzYooper Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 About Cha-Lee's example #1 - I know the limited number of commands that are suppose to be given and that other unnecessary talking should be avoided, but if the first command is not "Make Ready" I don't think that a pistol should be drawn. Maybe this is a hard lesson as others have talked about for example #2. Maybe its my mind set when I am the shooter because I don't do any gun handling until I hear that command. If I hear some other command I will ask "is that Make Ready?" I have been at the line facing downrange and heard "go ahead" before, and wonder if the RO is sending someone down range to tape or is actually talking to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 About Cha-Lee's example #1 - I know the limited number of commands that are suppose to be given and that other unnecessary talking should be avoided, but if the first command is not "Make Ready" I don't think that a pistol should be drawn. Maybe this is a hard lesson as others have talked about for example #2. Maybe its my mind set when I am the shooter because I don't do any gun handling until I hear that command. If I hear some other command I will ask "is that Make Ready?" I have been at the line facing downrange and heard "go ahead" before, and wonder if the RO is sending someone down range to tape or is actually talking to me. Excellent point. Regardless of what your primary language is, "Make Ready" it the only "Make Ready"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I guess the point I was making is, if I am ROing a new shooter and I see that he/she did not chamber a round... I am going to help the shooter out. They are under a lot of stress anyways and yes it is a double standard and a gut call (just like alot of the rules). You can take 10 RO's, ask a rules question and get 5 different answers. I have noticed that the newer RO's usually have the correct answers (they actually read the book recently). lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 You can take 10 RO's, ask a rules question and get 5 different answers. I have noticed that the newer RO's usually have the correct answers (they actually read the book recently). lol As you pointed out, Dan, the five different answers usually come from ROs who rely on memory (sometimes faulty), outdated rules, or "common sense" (instead of familiarity with the rule book). There are some legitimate gray areas where we puzzle over interpretation in the Rules forum, and ultimately ask the NROI for guidance. The one currently under discussion is as black and white as they come. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I guess the point I was making is, if I am ROing a new shooter and I see that he/she did not chamber a round... I am going to help the shooter out. They are under a lot of stress anyways and yes it is a double standard and a gut call (just like alot of the rules). You can take 10 RO's, ask a rules question and get 5 different answers. I have noticed that the newer RO's usually have the correct answers (they actually read the book recently). lol I agree that a lot of this is a gut call. I could go to a large match where I am an unknown and I do not think anyone would think of me as someone new to the game. I could also 99 times out of a 100 pick out who is new to the game. It comes down to if it is a seasoned shooter you are coaching. If it is a newby you are mentoring him because safety is #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I guess the point I was making is, if I am ROing a new shooter and I see that he/she did not chamber a round... I am going to help the shooter out. They are under a lot of stress anyways and yes it is a double standard and a gut call (just like alot of the rules). You can take 10 RO's, ask a rules question and get 5 different answers. I have noticed that the newer RO's usually have the correct answers (they actually read the book recently). lol Not to be a dick but I might have to start acting like a new shooter when I travel to matches... just in case I forget to chamber a round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Not to be a dick If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Gut call? If it is a gut call...it shouldn't be. That might mean there is uncertainty in the rule book and we should seek clarification from NROI. (rather than going with our various guts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Level 1, new shooter.....why not help them and then explain once per customer. I know when Micah "coached" me it was appreciated, and lesson not forgotten because it was explained to me. You leave a new shooter in the wind, I believe we are sending the wrong message. None of us were born knowing what we now know. We learned everything somewhere. Just my .02$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Unless there is a safety issue, the time for coaching is after the fact, unless it is a practice match rather than a sanctioned match. It's a slippery slope once you have to decide which rules to apply and how stringently to apply them. The rule book makes those sort of mental gymnastics unnecessary and keeps the playing field level. You help the new shooter and he edges someone else, maybe even another new shooter, by a point or two. That sends the wrong message, too. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Agreed. However most n ew shooters shoot a match or two before they join...they don't have the rules yet. While I agree rules are just that,rules. I also believe if you want the sport to grow, perhaps a less stringent view point should be taken with new shooters. With an explanation to them of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Level 1, new shooter.....why not help them and then explain once per customer. I know when Micah "coached" me it was appreciated, and lesson not forgotten because it was explained to me. You leave a new shooter in the wind, I believe we are sending the wrong message. None of us were born knowing what we now know. We learned everything somewhere. Just my .02$ We would be helping the shooter by not coaching him during the COF.... how is that leaving them in the wind? Coaching is during practice. RO has no discretion on this IMO. Sure you can do it.. but don't look for approvals according the rule book.... Slippery slope exactly! Would you tell a shooter they are missing a steel low after 3 shots? Would you tell them they missed engaging a target they hadn't seen? I think you are setting a bad precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 In this forum you are going to get black and white readings on the rules. The rules are black and white. It is better to say nothing except exactly the wording. I mean really, the shooter gets a failure drill right off the bat. Probably won't happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 The new shooter knows he is supposed to shoot the targets, so missing steel is off point. Any one who shows up to anything and right out of the gate screws up, and some one could have provided guidance does not, is going to have a skewed view of things. Do they even know we are not allowed to help? Yes, you can tell them after the fact, however they now feel like a moron. Again, new shooter, first match. Show me how helping a new shooter in any way is bad for the sport. If they feel welcome and helped, well maybe they come back. Let them look like a moron, well maybe they won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the comments on this guys. What needs to be done is now clear. The rules are the rules and need to be followed regardless of how we feel about the given situation. Edited May 11, 2011 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 The new shooter knows he is supposed to shoot the targets, so missing steel is off point. Any one who shows up to anything and right out of the gate screws up, and some one could have provided guidance does not, is going to have a skewed view of things. Do they even know we are not allowed to help? Yes, you can tell them after the fact, however they now feel like a moron. Again, new shooter, first match. Show me how helping a new shooter in any way is bad for the sport. If they feel welcome and helped, well maybe they come back. Let them look like a moron, well maybe they won't. Come on... really? No one is saying anything about not helping them, just NOT during the COF. Coaching is coaching whether you tell them to check the chamber or engage a target they missed. Who says you can only help them after the fact? I always encourage people to go to a few practices before a match- if anything to help get them some experience. Do you really know anyone that would be so embarrassed about dropping a hammer on an empty chamber that they wouldn't come back?? I've done worse things like that and still come back... we've all been there. Do what you want to do, but I try to follow the rule book, maybe not perfectly.. but I try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Before this drifts too much further into the "What if it's a brand-new shooter" discussion, let's remember that's not what Cha-Lee asked. I take and make certain allowances for new shooters that don't always align with the rulebook, based on nothing more concrete than my experience and judgment. I can't adequately define the circumstances under which I would do so because they're all unique moments. Whatever I decide to do - in that moment - I accept that I am inviting criticism and will just have to take it like an adult if it happens. If I can't adequately explain and defend my actions, I hope I learn the obvious lesson that I was wrong and shouldn't have done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Gut call? If it is a gut call...it shouldn't be. That might mean there is uncertainty in the rule book and we should seek clarification from NROI. (rather than going with our various guts) I sought clarification on another matter, was given it by the DNROI, then told he and I were still wrong! So, IMO, Flex, the statement you made above is completely contradictory to the gist of the other thread, because you dismissed the clarification of the DNROI, and went with your gut feeling...I.E., the pot calling the kettle black..... But, in answer to the OP, unless they ask for coaching, leave them be.... Edited May 11, 2011 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I take and make certain allowances for new shooters that don't always align with the rulebook, based on nothing more concrete than my experience and judgment. I can't adequately define the circumstances under which I would do so because they're all unique moments. Whatever I decide to do - in that moment - I accept that I am inviting criticism and will just have to take it like an adult if it happens. If I can't adequately explain and defend my actions, I hope I learn the obvious lesson that I was wrong and shouldn't have done it. Fair enough. In the grand scheme of things there are bigger fish to fry. Not many things in life are black and white though... so I take advantage of things that are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyroWebs Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) I've been guilty of "coaching" at a level 1 match. 99.9% of the time it is with a new shooter, but I am sure I've helped a seasoned shooter once or twice. Should I do it....probably not, but I'll admit I have Above a level 1, it's a different story. You're on your own. On a side note, is it considering coaching if the shooter turns and asks the RO questions regarding WSB instructions? Example: shooter turns and asks "Two shots each, mandatory reload, two shots each. Correct?" Is it coaching to reply with anything? Edited May 11, 2011 by KyroWebs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 You are not breaking any rules by coaching shooters at level 1 matches. 8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or assistance they request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 If the rulebook were written better without all of the gray areas??? This would be a pretty boring forum... don't ya think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 On a side note, is it considering coaching if the shooter turns and asks the RO questions regarding WSB instructions? Example: shooter turns and asks "Two shots each, mandatory reload, two shots each. Correct?" Is it coaching to reply with anything? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now