Is this REF?

[sperman]

CZinSC set up a great stage last Saturday. The start position was palms flat against a door. There was an array of targets to the shooters left, and another array of targets to be engaged through the door. Pulling this door open activated a disappearing target. Some shooters opened the door, shot the targets through the door, then engaged the array to the left. Others (like the shooter in question) chose to shoot the targets to the left, then open the door. Said shooter pushed off of the door at the start signal to engage the targets to the left. He Pushed on the door hard enough that it caused the drop turn to activate. I was on the clipboard and stopped the shooter for REF, but in hindsight I'm not sure I made the correct call. It was the shooters action that caused the drop turn to activate, not wind or a ricochet.

Opinions?

Edited April 26, 2011 by sperman

[sirveyr]

Yes, REF. The props should be expected to hold up to reasonable amounts of pressure/force.

[BritinUSA]

I think it depends on the Written Stage Briefing. If the WSB indicated that the drop-turner was activated by 'moving the door' then its not a REF.

If the WSB indicated that the drop-turner was activated by 'opening the door' then it's a REF.

...I think

[Joe4d]

do you recall the WSB ?

[JFlowers]

From what Scott said, the door opened to the shooter (pulling) but the REF was caused by the shooter pushing against the door. So I think the REF call was correct. However, it does sound like the door/activator mechanism needs a bit or bulletproofing.

[JakeMartens]

yes REF

the opening the door is what is supposed to activate the DT, not pushing it

[CZinSC]

Scott, in my opinion you made the right call. In fact, my squad was the first on the stage, and the first thing I noticed after watching a few shooters was the door moving slightly depending on how hard you pushed off of it. No one on our squad triggered it prematurely, but I was thinking someone might throughout the day.

The WSB was "Opening door activates drop turner".

In hindsight, there should have been a little more slack in the line, which probably would have prevented that from happening. That prop was one of the last things I set up and I was running out of time, so I didn't get as good of look at it before we started as I was hoping for. ( stupid business trip had me out of town until Friday night so I didn't get a chance to set it up on Friday like I wanted to )

***Edited to add the WSB:

Stage 4.pdf

Edited April 26, 2011 by CZinSC

[JakeMartens]

looks like a fun stage

but right there in the WSB says opening the door

[High Lord Gomer]

Evil...that stage looks like pure evil. There's enough steel on that to make me go through all of my mags and start grabbing them off the RO.

Besides, it's illegal (though I'm sure you didn't set it up exactly like the WSB shows).

[CZinSC]

Evil...that stage looks like pure evil. There's enough steel on that to make me go through all of my mags and start grabbing them off the RO.

Besides, it's illegal (though I'm sure you didn't set it up exactly like the WSB shows).

Pretty darn close. The back right array was closer and the to the right more. A few barrels set up here and there to reduce the angles of viewing. other than that, pretty spot on.

So which part is illegal??? You pullin' my chain Gomer?

[mhs]

Evil...that stage looks like pure evil. There's enough steel on that to make me go through all of my mags and start grabbing them off the RO.

Besides, it's illegal (though I'm sure you didn't set it up exactly like the WSB shows).

Pretty darn close. The back right array was closer and the to the right more. A few barrels set up here and there to reduce the angles of viewing. other than that, pretty spot on.

So which part is illegal??? You pullin' my chain Gomer?

4.2.1 There are two types of paper targets approved for use in USPSA

Handgun matches (see Appendix B ). These types must not be included

together in any stage.

[CZinSC]

OK, now I see. That was a limitation in the Google Sketchup program. 99% of the props you can want are in that program, just not a drop turner with a Classic Target on it. So I used the Metric target version for the WSB. The actual stage was set up with all Classic Targets.

[gng4life]

Cool stage and great design...

Good call Scott...

[LT45]

OK, now I see. That was a limitation in the Google Sketchup program. 99% of the props you can want are in that program, just not a drop turner with a Classic Target on it. So I used the Metric target version for the WSB. The actual stage was set up with all Classic Targets.

Send me a PM with your email and I'll give you a drop-turner with a classic target on it.. if you would like..

[CZinSC]

OK, now I see. That was a limitation in the Google Sketchup program. 99% of the props you can want are in that program, just not a drop turner with a Classic Target on it. So I used the Metric target version for the WSB. The actual stage was set up with all Classic Targets.

Send me a PM with your email and I'll give you a drop-turner with a classic target on it.. if you would like..

PM Sent. And Thank you!

[spanky]

OK, now I see. That was a limitation in the Google Sketchup program. 99% of the props you can want are in that program, just not a drop turner with a Classic Target on it. So I used the Metric target version for the WSB. The actual stage was set up with all Classic Targets.

copy a classic target onto your clipboard, (right click then copy), then right click on your drop turner, click edit component (i think, it dont have SKP on the computer i'm on) and you can delete the target and paste in the new one.

[spanky]

btw, great stage. mind if I use it? i'm in a crunch for some stages for our may match (if it even happens) and haven't had time to draw any up and my computer with all the stages i've drawn is packed up.

[CZinSC]

Spanky, thanks for the tip, I'll have to try that. In the meantime, LT45 was kind enough to send me the props in a sketchup file. Thanks Larry!

And yes, please go ahead and use the stage!

By the way, here are my videos from this past weekend, this stage starts at the 3:20 mark. At least it may give you some idea (not much) about the target placements.

Edited April 26, 2011 by CZinSC

[High Lord Gomer]

Evil...that stage looks like pure evil. There's enough steel on that to make me go through all of my mags and start grabbing them off the RO.

Besides, it's illegal (though I'm sure you didn't set it up exactly like the WSB shows).

Pretty darn close. The back right array was closer and the to the right more. A few barrels set up here and there to reduce the angles of viewing. other than that, pretty spot on.

So which part is illegal??? You pullin' my chain Gomer?

See? I said I was sure you didn't set it up exactly like that!

Besides, would *I* jerk your chain?!?

I like the stage, too. If we had a star I'd hink about doing it.

Edited April 26, 2011 by High Lord Gomer

[CZinSC]

Gomer, when I get on my home computer, I'll send you the alternative WSB. I didn't think I'd be able to use the star, so I set up some steel plates and no shoots, not the same as a star, but the accuracy requirement was up there.

Bascially just put four no shoots spaced just far enough apart to have a steel plate between each one.

[High Lord Gomer]

Cool idea, thank you!

You do realize this implies you might actually work while you are at work....

[sperman]

Gomer, when I get on my home computer, I'll send you the alternative WSB. I didn't think I'd be able to use the star, so I set up some steel plates and no shoots, not the same as a star, but the accuracy requirement was up there.

Bascially just put four no shoots spaced just far enough apart to have a steel plate between each one.

The only problem with that is that a round that goes through the no shoot and continues to knock down the plate = reshoot.

I wish some of the clubs around here had steel no-shoots. It would open up a lot more possibilities in stage design.

[gng4life]

Gomer, when I get on my home computer, I'll send you the alternative WSB. I didn't think I'd be able to use the star, so I set up some steel plates and no shoots, not the same as a star, but the accuracy requirement was up there.

Bascially just put four no shoots spaced just far enough apart to have a steel plate between each one.

The only problem with that is that a round that goes through the no shoot and continues to knock down the plate = reshoot.

I wish some of the clubs around here had steel no-shoots. It would open up a lot more possibilities in stage design.

Not if you space them out correctly and avoid any odd angles to may allow the NS/Steel situation.

Good point though...

[JAFO]

I wish some of the clubs around here had steel no-shoots. It would open up a lot more possibilities in stage design.

Steel no-shoots, specifically a swinging steel no-shoot, are on my wish list for our club. You could do a lot of mean things with one of those on a swinger.

Like spanky said, editing components or groups in SKP isn't too hard. The first time I had to do it was when I put a triple target array on a swinger. I do make sure I save anything I modify in my default startup template, though. That saves you from ever having to modify it again. You can guess how I learned that one.

[CZinSC]

Gomer, when I get on my home computer, I'll send you the alternative WSB. I didn't think I'd be able to use the star, so I set up some steel plates and no shoots, not the same as a star, but the accuracy requirement was up there.

Bascially just put four no shoots spaced just far enough apart to have a steel plate between each one.

The only problem with that is that a round that goes through the no shoot and continues to knock down the plate = reshoot.

I wish some of the clubs around here had steel no-shoots. It would open up a lot more possibilities in stage design.

Not if you space them out correctly and avoid any odd angles to may allow the NS/Steel situation.

Good point though...

I had the steel plates even with the no shoots practically touching. that way there would be no shoot throughs. The angles would be in a way that the only place to shoot them from would be straight in front of them at the port.