Shooter induced REF?

[spanky]

I will give the scenario and open it for discussion:

At the end of the COF there is a door that you must push open (hinged forward so you can't pull it). The door is not in the best shape and there is only a metal frame (picture a screen door) and the bottom kickpanel. There is no wood, screen covering, etc. The shooter advanced forward and pushes the door open with his foot on the metal kickpanel. His foot goes through the door and he lands on his ba-donk-a-donk. Shooter safely falls, safely gets up and finishes shooting the COF.

Question: Reshoot for Range Equipment Malfunction?

[aztecdriver]

Did the door break, or did it function as it would have functioned for everyone else and he just slipped on his foot placement?

If the door functioned like it would have for anyone else doing the same manuever and they just screwed up where his foot and balance went. - No REF. If the door broke, ie - kicking the door panel caused it to become dislodged - yada... REF, and consider a stronger door?

Sounds reasonable to me, what do you think?

[bbbean]

I'd think so.

[Poppa Bear]

Did the door break or did he miss the door and put his foot above the kick plate and lose his balance?

If the former then REF, if the latter then suck it up and keep shooting.

[Poppa Bear]

OK I re-read the OP. He put his foot through the door. I guess the question becomes how much force did he apply?

If he ran at it full speed and literally busted the door by kicking it so hard it failed then NO REF. This would be like having a wall fail because the shooter hit it so hard it broke. If he applied the same pressure as most other shooters did but the repeated abuse weakened the door to an extent that it failed then REF.

[spanky]

The foot impacted with normal force against the metal panel the panel peeled away.

[BayouSlide]

REF...amount of force applied has nothing to do with it whether it is REF or not. If he feel on his kester with a misplaced kick, too bad, so sad, his problem, no REF. If his foot went through the door, breaking the prop, then prop failure screwed his run...he gets another go and it's time to get a stronger prop.

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of

paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the

failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of

mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of

props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

[Flexmoney]

The foot impacted with normal force against the metal panel the panel peeled away.

Reshoot.

I pulled a door off it's hinges at an Area match (it was it's time), and also pushed over a wall at Nationals (among other things ). Reshoot.

[Coach]

REF. Reshoot.

Was this debated at the time?

[Poppa Bear]

REF...amount of force applied has nothing to do with it whether it is REF or not. If he feel on his kester with a misplaced kick, too bad, so sad, his problem, no REF. If his foot went through the door, breaking the prop, then prop failure screwed his run...he gets another go and it's time to get a stronger prop.

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of

paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the

failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of

mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of

props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

I cannot find a specific rule that outlaws it but this is close to the intent:

10.6.3 A competitor who is deemed by a Range Officer to have intentionally

removed or caused the loss of eye or ear protection in order to gain a

competitive advantage will be disqualified.

How would you declare it if the shooter was tanking the stage and decided to see if they could force some sort of REF just so they could reshoot the stage? An example of this could be "Forgetting" to turn the knob as they open the door and instead using their shoulder to drive it right off its hinges.

You could site:

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike

conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty,

failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master

must be notified as soon as possible.

But you would have to prove the act was intentional on their part.

[Nik Habicht]

Range Equipment Failure. While the two sections of the rulebook quoted below don't specifically apply, they do provide a "best practices" approach to stage construction.....

2.1.6 Obstacles – Natural or created obstacles in a course of fire should reasonably allow for variations in competitors’ height and physical build and should be constructed to provide reasonable safety for all competitors, Match Officials and spectators.

2.2.2 Obstacles – Courses of fire may include the use of barriers or major obstacles to be surmounted by competitors. Obstacles used in this way must not exceed a height of 6.5 feet. Obstacles over 3 feet in height must be supplied with scaling aids to assist competitors and must be constructed to provide for the competitor’s safety in the following ways:

2.2.2.1 Obstacles must be firmly anchored and braced to provide adequate support when in use. Wherever possible, unduly sharp or rough surfaces must be removed to reduce the possibility of injury to competitors and/or Match Officials.

Overbuild it, shooters are rough, and trying to proceed quickly through the COF.

[spanky]

I was the shooter. I got a reshoot after I asked for one.

And I really didnt "kick" the door, I forcefully pushed it with my foot while reloading.

And this question was stemmed from a conversation with max (sr) after I told him what happened.

[Mark R]

I'd say Range Equipment Failure...the door did not hold up to it's intended purpose. If it can go wrong, it will go wrong...eventually. Props with user intervention need to be bullet proof...no pun intended. If someone can break it, they will.

I'm learning to expect the unexpected in stage design, safety briefs, and range props.

[Chuck Anderson]

Was there anything in the WSB about how to open the door, i.e. don't kick it or must use doorknob? If not and it was totally open, reshoot.

[Coach]

I was the shooter. I got a reshoot after I asked for one.

And I really didnt "kick" the door, I forcefully pushed it with my foot while reloading.

And this question was stemmed from a conversation with max (sr) after I told him what happened.

Justice was served.

[spanky]

Was there anything in the WSB about how to open the door, i.e. don't kick it or must use doorknob? If not and it was totally open, reshoot.

No.

[GrumpyOne]

REF=RESHOOT.

Nothing in the WSB, kick the crap outta that sucker. If it breaks, it wasn't built strong enough....

[chbrow10]

I know this door you speak of. I'm surprised y'all got it to stand upright and open. At my RO course, Troy spoke of ensuring that your props are robust enough. He mentioned a guy who was famous for breaking props (on accident). I'd say that door is long past its prime.

Sorry I couldn't be there to see the event. To offer assistance, of course.