When to stand vs shoot while moving?

[kdj]

I'm probably going to have trouble making this a coherent question so please excuse the verbal fumblings ...

One of the things I know I don't judge well on certain kinds of stages is the balance of standing and shooting vs shooting while moving. How do you decide which is appropriate in a given circumstance?

Shooting while moving has the efficiency advantage of doing two things at once but the accuracy and speed are less than shooting stationary and running later. For some classes of target, it's obviously better to shoot while moving but there's a gray area, I think and for me most choices fall into that gray area!

As an example, a stage at a recent match had a start box with 6 targets going up the left side of the bay at (say) 3 yds, 5 yds, 7 yds, 10 yds, 15 yds, 20yds, then 6 more going along the back all at 25 yds from the start box, with 1 far right tucked behind a barricade so it could only be seen from a couple of feet away (some poetic license taken with the actual stage). How ever you shoot it, you have to end up pretty close to 25 yds from where you started.

There seem to be 3 obvious choices:

1. Move diagonally towards the hidden target shooting the left line and the back line as you go

2. Shoot the left line from the box, run to the last target and shoot it and the back line (or shoot the left and the back and then run)

3. Run the left line hosing those, then run along the back hosing those and get the hidden target last.

I picked 1 as did the eventual stage winner. I saw people who did 2 (and the obvious variants of that) and I saw a couple who did 3.

Ignoring the obvious "I can't tell, depends on how the targets look" kind of answer, how would you decide which approach is most likely to be optimal?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Flexmoney]

There are lots of thread on this (found by using the ever-so-popular search function).

- Shooting while moving

- Shooting while running

- Shooting on the move, Drills?

- Elements of movement...when are they introduced?

[kdj]

There are lots of thread on this (found by using the ever-so-popular search function).

Believe it or not, I've read most of these

With the exception of 1 comment by Steve Anderson "it's always faster to shoot on the move than to stand and shoot and run" (which might negate my entire line of thinking, of course), they focus on the mechanics of shooting while moving. I have a reasonable handle on that. My question is more around the decision of when to use this technique vs stand and shoot and then run.

For any given circumstance, I could shoot it both ways and then pick the faster but they won't usually let me do that in a match

I'm interested in the criteria that people use to make the judgement call as to whether to stand or move.

Those who can shoot just as fast and accurately in a flat out sprint as standing still won't understand the question

As a point of discussion, I shot the above mentioned stage both ways and it was faster shooting while moving, is this always the case?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Loves2Shoot]

I think a lot of it depends on how you shoot, and what you are comfortable with, that is why it is hard to explain.

For instance, if you have some really far targets, you might not want to try to shoot them on the move, even if you can see them (far is relative to your ability.) I tend not to shoot targets past 10 yards while moving, it just takes too long to get good hits for me while trying to move at that distance, open I would say 15 yards.

Some people take easy targets on the move coming into a port, but I've found for me it is generally faster to get to the hard target first and then take the easier ones while exiting the port.

I guess what I'm saying is you just need to set up different target scenarios in practice and try them different ways and see what you are most comfortable with and produce the best hits. You will find that after awhile you find what work and what doesn't. So much depends on how you shoot.

There is no general rule for me, it is all based on experience.

[mcoliver]

You'll need to find out your accuracy limits when shooting on the move (SOTM). As well as, the time differences between SOTM and running in between shooting (RIBS). You'll then find out at which distance one style becomes more favorable for you than the other. And any closer, both will seem to work equally well.

Personally, I do well RIBS when it's only a short sprint between positions (or the targets are further than 10yrds.) Any longer and my accuracy suffers too much from being out of breath on the next position.

Maybe I need more than the regular walks to the coffee vending machine to increase endurance.

[cpty1]

Your question hits home for me. I struggle at times with whether to SOTM or RIBS. Stage 4 at the Alabama Match last weekend was a good example. I thought I would fair better by RIBS, due to the length of the shooting area and the fact that all targets could be engaged from two positions other than the start position. I whacked a couple of Ds on the stage which didn't help, but I still lost time to shooters who run similar times to mine, because they SOTM. Conversely, at GA state last year there was a stage where I shot everything on the move, and knew afterwards I would have been better off to have RIBS due to the distance on some of the shots. I knew everyone can misinterpret how to shoot a particular stage at times, but whether to SOTM or RIBS is still something I struggle with. I plan on setting up the AL State stage in practice one day and run it both ways, then alter the distance of the targets to "see what I see".

[Ron Ankeny]

How timely. Sam and I have been having this discussion for a month. In fact, my morning dry fire practice has been shooting on the move between my living room and kitchen and I have hit the range 8 out of the last 10 days to shoot on the move. I would guess I have shot at least 2,000 rounds in the last 3 weeks, most of it shooting on the move.

I am not an explosive mover like Avery or Barnhart. Overcoming inertia is tough for me to do. I am better off constantly shifting my weight to the next position/target whether it be shooting on the move or just preparing to get to the next spot. I spent a couple of years dashing (more like stumbling) from sweet spot to sweet spot trying to duplicate what the agile and mobile athletic shooters seem to do so well. Age, muscle type (fast vs. slow twitch), and overall physical condition are not on my side.

For me, there is an ideal balance of shots fired vs. distance covered. I am still working on figuring all of this out at various yardages. In some scenarios, the time is takes to RIBS, is the same as the time it takes to SOTM, but I don't feel as rushed if I shoot moving. I would rather SOTM than RIBS any day.

[shred]

Shooting on the move has a higher 'disaster-factor' for me (especially if there are a lot of targets that can be got on the move), but it's almost always worth it if the targets are close.

[Bear1142]

I think movement is the most underdeveloped skill in this sport. Mostly because people don't have the facilities to allow you to practice moving and shooting, but I think it's more of a mindset. Most people don't treat this sport as a sport. They treat it as a hobby. The ability to move effectively and efficiently is probably the most critical aspect of doing well in this sport, but very few people give it the respect is deserves. Movement has nothing to do with the condition of your body (to a degree, barring a debilitating injury). Every person, regardless of skill level would benefit from paying more attention to their movement skills.

kdj,

Without knowing your skill level, I used to use a standard guideline of 11 yards to determine whether or not I would shoot on the move. If the rewards were great enough, I could extend that distance out to 13 yards, but never past 13. I developed a chart of different courses and compared the times between SOTM and RIBS. Inside 11 yards, it was faster for me to SOTM. (When available), outside 11 my split times, transitions, and accuracy just weren't there and I scored better if I just stood and shot. Try breaking it down for yourself and find the distance where the two techniques trade off.

Erik

[Ron Ankeny]

Erik:

I know you are a highly accomplished shooter but the idea of...

Movement has nothing to do with the condition of your body (to a degree, barring a debilitating injury).

...is darn hard for me to swallow. I recently lost 50 pounds and I can see a huge difference. I intend to lose another 10-15 pounds and improve my cardio along the way. Would I get the same results in future matches if I just sit on my butt in front of the TV and gobble down Twinkies?

[kdj]

I know you are a highly accomplished shooter but the idea of...

Movement has nothing to do with the condition of your body (to a degree, barring a debilitating injury).

...is darn hard for me to swallow.

How about: Every one can optimize their movement within the physical limitations of their current condition?

I suppose I'm encouraged that others much better than me have to give serious thought to this issue ... on the other hand, a simple silver bullet would have been nice too

Kevin

[Bear1142]

Ron,

I meant in comparison to whether you choose to SOTM or stand and shoot. Regardless of the condition of your body, you will see some benefit. It was not meant as a comparison between two different people and I did qualify the statement by saying to a degree. You are correct, if you sit on the couch and eat twinkees (and I do confess a weakness for them) all day long your movement skills may diminsh, but even if you move slower and are more cumbersome, you will score higher on certain stages if you move as opposed to just standing still.

And congratulations on losing the weight. I have been forced to watch my weight all my life and I can appreciate the effort it took to accomplish what you did.

Erik

[Ron Ankeny]

Oh, I am with you now. Sorry about blowing up.

[Steve Anderson]

This is a fave topic of mine.

At the AL I shot very little on the move and regretted it after the match.

I was really going for alphas (and got 'em) but at the exopense of speed on a couple of stages.

I am very comfortable SOTM forward out to 20 yards. Sideways, not so much.

Guess what I'm working on now?

Stage 1 I planned to SOTM and wound up planted (because of what I saw behind the gun) at the second two arrays, where had I planned to plant I could have set up between arrays 2 and 3 and shot much faster.

Stage 4 I planned to plant in the middle but after watching Max I decided to shoot a little on the move. Wound up with an ineffective half-assed plan that wasn't burned in.

I drew some great conclusions after the match and have a plan to rectify my inadequacies. I love this sh*t.

To answer the question of when to SOTM: I believe I have to KNOW what my capabilities are and game the stage to the best use of my strengths.

I have never liked SOTM sideways, and we don't see it too much locally. (especially since I'm one of the MDs ) That will change too.

SA

[Sam]

Saving a half second moving is way easier and safer than saving a half second shooting.

[38supPat]

KDJ: Most of the answers here are right on. Basically its up to you to decide whether or not to shoot on the move, and this is based on what you have practiced and are comfortable with. If you can hit a partial target at 10 yds on the fly, go for it. Can you do it moving forward? Sideways? Backing up? It's something you have to practice. Its as much a feel and a confidence issue as anything else. If you have practiced it, and feel solid, do it. Spend a practice session just trying variations on movement. TJ's Devils Triangle drill is excellent for this.

[rhino]

Speaking of movement skills ... last week at our steel match, we had one stage where you had to move from one box to another (maybe 5 yards or so). For the first time ever, I was able (on one and only one string) to break my shot and get the hit just as my first foot hit the box and my other foot had left the ground. Woo-Hoo!

Thanks to BigDave for noticing and letting me know ... otherwise I had no idea!

[tightloop]

Good Job, Rhino

[Sam]

Thanks to BigDave for noticing and letting me know ... otherwise I had no idea!

Excellent, Rhino! Now that you know its so easy, just let it happen again. I'll be Big Dave will be happy to help.

[rhino]

Thanks for the encouragement, guys!

Yes, BigDave is an excellent coach (and a better friend, but I can't say so in public because I don't go for that mushy stuff).

In fact, I've decided to no longer discriminate against him in the future because of his exaggerated height ... it's not entirely his fault!

[old shooter]

Sam Posted on Apr 1 2004, 02:23 PM

Saving a half second moving is way easier and safer than saving a half second shooting.

This looks like what it all boils down to, but if RIBS, I am always reminded of TGO's quote "it's not how fast you get there, it's how fast you get there ready to shoot"

Mike

BTW, SOTM and RIBS are both great acronyms, only on BEnos.....these would be great on a Tee shirt........."SOTM vs RIBS, you decide" you would sure know a BE'er if you saw that.

[JMPeterson]

Basic Elements of Shooting on the Move:

-Knees bent/lower the center of gravity

-Upper body forwards/lean into it.

-Elbows-some like having them bent

-Trigger speed independent of foot speed

Make sure you are getting good trigger reset and not slapping the trigger (I say this because as your heartrate goes up, this is one of the first things to fall by the wayside)

If the gun is noticeably bouncing, then do the opposite of what most would tend to do (most people straigthen up or slow down to get the gun to stop jumping around)......lean into it more and bend the knees more to get rid of the bounce.

A good thing you can do is lots of dry then live fire to experiment with what you can do safely for speed. You have to know what your envelope is.

Most of the other stuff that I cover with people relates more so to a confrontation, for close quarters situations, and/or when there are multiple opponents in multiple directions and you may be moving. The other situation here that will affect movement techinque is the feet. So, I think much of that might not help in IPSC but for real deal will for sure help, especially if moving like your hair is on fire.

[Mistral404]

I had an opportunity to spend a couple of days practicing with a GM. His statement to me was what differentiates good shooters from better shooters is the ability to shoot while moving.

So for about 800 rounds (over two days in separate weeks) we had a string of targets with hard cover and no shoots. About eight or nine targets total.

First he shot it from box a on the left to box b on the right, about twenty yards apart. Then he did it while moving. His moving times were faster!

It was lateral movement, one leg in front of the other. Practice Practice Practice.

Now I do the same type of drill with my .22. I use a .22 so I can focus on the timing, a balanced platform, and sight picture. I put about a 1000 rounds down range doing this lateral drill. I alsways follow my.22 work with my .45. Same drill, then I move to my other drills with my Limited gun.

I am still pretty slow at but the drill has helped me improve moving and shooting.

btw: I take about twice the amount of time to do the drill as the GM.

[Merlin Orr]

Things you THINK you know are not necessarily true...

Never practiced shooting on the move - at all. At the last match at our home club I "nagged" until I got a stage that would test shooting on the move. It was a combination of 3 stages we combined to form a long - about 40 yards of lateral movement stage with 18 paper targets. My number came up deep in the rotation so I got to watch (and paste) about 15 guys before I shot. Bunches of Mikes - LOTS of em. So, after all my bitchen I chickened out on SOTM and did the run - stop and shoot method. I caught hell from all the guys who I nagged to get the setup... Anyway - yesterday I set up 3 targets - 30 yards total separation between first and last - Moving straight sideways right to left ( I am a righty) - Fired 6 shots per target - 18 rnds total each run. Did about 8 runs each method

1. draw and shoot (first target) then running & stopping at the next, shooting then run to the last and shoot.

2. draw and shoot as I moved at the same approximate speed from target 1 all the way through target 3

Run & stop netted an average of about 10 seconds with no mikes and about 80% A hits. I noticed my first shot or two were definitly Not as good as the ones after I really got settled into my "box."

SOTM netted an average of a tad over 8 seconds - with slightly better hits... The only way I believe I can shoot faster (and better) moving that the run and stop is because I did it - 8 times. About 20% faster (for me) and not even breathing heavy when I finished.

[mcoliver]

One thing I noticed doing SOTM is that, with my current level of shooting ability, SOTM gives me more reward if it allows me to setup better for the next position. Meaning, SOTM allows me to convert a short sprint into a transition.

If the scenario only benefits me by getting me closer to the next position, I'm better off doing a sprint instead (better points on the last position).

Also, I noticed, more often I get a mike doing SOTM while going into position (shooting the first visible target). Maybe it's the rushing to get to the shooting.