Is IDPA training?

[Duane Thomas]

"1)  Low cover requires a knee to be placed on the ground.  That's stupid.  As long as the shooter is behind cover, he should be good to go.  Why is kneeling somehow better than squatting?"

Actually I know the answer to that. There's "being behind cover" and then there's "being behind cover." The reason the powers-that-be at IDPA High Command don't want you squatting, instead they want a knee on the ground, is that they want you shooting from around the side of low cover instead of simply squatting and shooting over the top. When you shoot over the top of cover you expose your head to enemy fire from the cheekbones up, i.e. your entire cranial cavity is hanging out there for someone to put a bullet into. OTOH you can shoot around the side of cover and expose nothing but a fraction of an inch of the side of your face. I got this from talking to IDPA board member John Sayle BTW. It could be argued that, in the IDPA Rule Book, they should have told you WHY they had the "you must kneel, no squatting" rule, instead of just presenting the rule without justification.

"2)  Magazine changes must be behind cover.  That's silly as well.  I saw plenty of people (including myself) running to cover and they could not perform a mag change until they got behind cover.  So here I am, waiting 2-3 seconds with an empty gun running to get to cover before I can perform a mag change that I could have completed WELL before I ever got to the cover in the first place."

Now why did you run your gun dry while you were in the open? Unless you were missing a lot, or left cover with a partially loaded gun (both no-nos) there's no reason you should have run out of ammo in the open. For that matter, why were you firing up targets in the open? Shouldn't you have been behind cover if at all possible?

"3) Mag changes must be tactical or done from slide-lock.  I saw plenty of shooters firing extra shots so they could do slide-lock reloads instead of tactical relaods. I did this myself once until I said to myself that this is stupid, I'm not going to fire extra shots just so I can do a faster reload.  From then on, I did slower tactical mag changes, TO MY DETRIMENT.  This is an untenable rule and leads to a lot of "cheating" that really can't be penalized."

It is specifically against the rules to fire extra rounds to get your slide to lock back, to avoid having to do a tactical reload. All the people you mention, and yourself, should have received FTDR penalties for this.

"4) mag changes etc. must be done completely behind cover.  This rule sent a couple of military and police types that I was shooting with into orbit.  People would be assessed penalties if they did not go completely behind cover while they were manipulating their guns.  When you are completely behind cover, you have no idea what your opponents are doing.  You can't see them. In a real fight, an opponent could walk right up to you and blast you and you would have no idea what he was doing."

I've heard that argument before. And there have indeed been people who've been whacked during the reloading process. However when you examine the incidents in question, you find invariably the dead guys were (a) armed with revolvers, ( poorly trained and practiced, and © trying to reload their guns one round at a time instead of using speedloaders. Common sense tells us to NOT be hanging our heads out in the open while reloading our empty guns. Someone might shoot us in it.

[Mark Perez]

I was one of the so's at the az state match - worked bay 4 , site of the infamous 'crow woman war-cry' as mentioned elsewhere.

talon ,in ref to cover and loading ref rule 19.

19. PROPER USE OF COVER: If cover is available, the shooter must use it! More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading....

And regarding one of our stages at bay 4 ,yes a cover prop was in place [barrel] at the forward most position.

Some competitors elected to reload [from a covered position] then advance while others advanced to reload and re-engage at the brl.

IDPA/IPSC/other shootin' games can be used for training in what works and also what DOESN't work in regards to real events.If you don't carry as part of your daily routine - then any training benifit only applies to the safe environment of the range grounds.

I don't want to get to much into tactics-seems that is a topic agreed not to discuss as  members of this forum.Some one might accuse me of being one of those tactical freaks or guru

BillF

here are some local sites that offer IDPA in Az.

http://www.cactusmatch.com

http://www.sundog-shooters.com

http://www.azgunning.com

and a good one at http://www.azidpa.com

Idpassr - were you the guy with that blue shirt?

(Edited by Mark Perez at 4:01 pm on April 3, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

Mark,

You may have misread my post. I'm saying IDPA High Command is RIGHT to mandate kneeling instead of squatting for low cover.

[kellyn]

Duane,  allow me to retort.

1) With the barricades that we were using, you could see over the top with a knee on the ground especially if your as tall as my tango partner TGO.  There may be some reason for the rule but it does not match the reality of the matches.  With some of the barricades designated as low cover, you actually had to shoot over, there was practically no way to shoot around.  This rule leads to stagnation and allows taller people a great advantage in matches.  If cover is so important, then use fault lines and barricades to make the shooter use cover instead of subjective guess as to what 50% of the shooter A zone is or whether his knee is on the ground.

2)"Unless you were missing a lot"  Ouch.  I was not missing a lot in fact I did not miss one shot on this stage or in the entire match. (not that I've never missed a lot!).  Some stages required shooters to engage targets while moving out in the open. Most people would empty their guns on these targets while on the move so they could do a speed load instead of a tac load once they got behind cover after the movement.  I misspoke in my first post, I did not run my gun dry (I sure wanted too), so I was stuck with a partially loaded gun and could not reload until I was behind cover. Instead I grabbed a mag and held it up right to the gun and did a tac load as soon as I was behind cover, which seemed a great waste of (realworld) time.  It seemed very silly to be unable to perform my reload as I was moving along.

3) It may be against the rules to shoot guns to slide lock but it is completely UNENFORCEABLE.  Limited vickers or virginia count is so much easier to enforce.  How can an RO possibly know the reason a shooter fired an extra shot?  Did the shooter call a bad shot and shot again (particularly on moving stages) or did the shooter dump an extra shot to do a tac reload. Who knows?When the RO finally calls the 10th,50th, or100th person on it (NEVER the 1st) and gives them a FTDR, how is that fair? It's far too subjective.

4) I'm no tactician, soldier or gunfighter but I paint ball a lot.  I always want to know what my opponent is doing!  That does not mean sticking your entire head out but it does mean being aware.  I can assure you that the guys I was shooting with were not poorly trained.

Mark, thanks for ROing!  I'm glad you got to experince the crow woman war cry.

(Edited by kellyn at 6:59 am on April 4, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

1) With the barricades that we were using, you could see over the top with a knee on the ground especially if your as tall as my tango partner TGO.  There may be some reason for the rule but it does not match the reality of the matches.  With some of the barricades designated as low cover, you actually had to shoot over, there was practically no way to shoot around.  This rule leads to stagnation and allows taller people a great advantage in matches.  If cover is so important, then use fault lines and barricades to make the shooter use cover instead of subjective guess as to what 50% of the shooter A zone is or whether his knee is on the ground.

You can actually get down and shoot around the side of a barricade via kneeling a lot lower than most people realize. At a match I shot a few months ago, there was a stage where you had to shoot under a piece of lathe somewhere between two to 2-1/2 feet off the ground, and were penalized if ANY part of your body extended above the lathe. It CAN be done. And, I realize these matches aren't the real world, but to use that overworked phrase, "in the real world," it should be.  And no, that's not in accordance witih the IDPA Rule Book, but I still found it an interesting and worthwhile exercise. And yes, I'm one of the guys who got hit with a procedural penalty for exposure. And afterwards I did complain to the SO, "Oh come on, there's no way to get completely down under that stick and still be able to aim the gun." To which he replied, "Sure there is." So, before the next person ran through, I tried it. Just by compacting my body a bit more, and turning the gun a bit on its side to bring my head down further, I was able to easily get my entire body under the lathe and still be able to fire up the targets effectively. It was a real eye-opener for me, a great learning experience.

2)"Unless you were missing a lot"  Ouch.  I was not missing a lot in fact I did not miss one shot on this stage or in the entire match. (not that I've never missed a lot!).  Some stages required shooters to engage targets while moving out in the open. Most people would empty their guns on these targets while on the move so they could do a speed load instead of a tac load once they got behind cover after the movement.  I misspoke in my first post, I did not run my gun dry (I sure wanted too), so I was stuck with a partially loaded gun and could not reload until I was behind cover. Instead I grabbed a mag and held it up right to the gun and did a tac load as soon as I was behind cover, which seemed a great waste of (realworld) time.  It seemed very silly to be unable to perform my reload as I was moving along.

Yeah that sounds lame. At the same time, I do feel that rather than spending any time or energy in grabbing spare mags while moving in the open, the tactic here would just absolutely bust ass - I mean, kick it into overdrive - to cover, then reload once you get there.

3) It may be against the rules to shoot guns to slide lock but it is completely UNENFORCEABLE.  Limited vickers or virginia count is so much easier to enforce.  How can an RO possibly know the reason a shooter fired an extra shot?  Did the shooter call a bad shot and shot again (particularly on moving stages) or did the shooter dump an extra shot to do a tac reload. Who knows?When the RO finally calls the 10th,50th, or100th person on it (NEVER the 1st) and gives them a FTDR, how is that fair? It's far too subjective.

Probably true. I guess it depends on the perceptiveness of the RO, and how seriously they take this rule.

4) I'm no tactician, soldier or gunfighter but I paint ball a lot.  I always want to know what my opponent is doing!  That does not mean sticking your entire head out but it does mean being aware.  I can assure you that the guys I was shooting with were not poorly trained.

I'm just putting this forth as a point of discussion, but even if you were aware of what the other guy was doing, if you're in the process of reloading, what could you do about it anyway? The fact you can't see the other guy probably means he can't see you either. OTOH if you're exposing part of your head while reloading, that means he can shoot you while you can't shoot him. Probably my old military training showing there - 10 years on active duty in the US Army, paratrooper and RECONDO qualified. And I assure you, cover is GOD in the Army. We like it, we love it, we want more of it. Paintballing can be great training; the only bad part is that, knowing our opponents aren't firing real bullets at us, that our life isn't really on the line, there is a very real tendency to take chances we wouldn't in real life, like exposing ourself to enemy fire - which is, after all, only paintballs - when we don't absolutely have to.

[MSM]

Good points Duane.  I would like to add, that people here need to realize that other than the fact that we shoot similar targets and use some of the similar guns, IDPA and IPSC are very different sports as far as the rules are concerned.  You can shoot IPSC the IDPA way and basically you will not do well at all, but if you shoot IDPA using IPSC techniques you will crash and burn with tons of violations.  A great shooter can shoot both with no problems, so it's time we all strive to be great shooters and do a little less complaining.

[DogmaDog]

Being an (almost) 12 year veteran of the Marine Corps, I'd have to say that IDPA and IPSC are every bit as good as any live fire "training" I've received from uncle Sam.  Training is much more in your attitude toward an activity than it is in the activity itself..."what aspect of this can I take with me and apply under other circumstances?" is the question you should ask yourself.  

A story may illustrate:  Marines at the barracks in Beirut were taken under fire by men armed with assault rifles.  The Marines were green, and didn't recognize the sound of bullets whizzing by and impacting the building..."what's that weird noise?"  Their lieutenant recognized the sound and got his Marines to taking cover and shooting back and all that good stuff.  What the Lt had done that his troops had not was to consider all of his activities in terms of their potential training value.  When he was qualifying on the rifle range, and pulling targets in the pits, he imagined that he was being shot at (even though he was safe behind the berm), and he paid attention to the sounds and sensations, and extrapolated that experience to the "real world" in Beirut.

Everything is training, but no training is perfect.

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[Billf]

I agree with many of the remarks given on this thread. The ideas and thoughts help me in arranging my thoughts on the attitudes that irritate me. The irritation comes from those experienced shooters whom constantly insist to the newbies that IDPA is TRAINING in self-defense and combat. Many of these guys whom insist on brain washing the new shooters into this type of thinking in the club I shoot in are NRA, and State Concealed carry instructors. They SAY that IDPA matches are REAL life training scenarios and  target other shooting sports as training in skills that would get you killed in a real life situation.

I strongly disagree and the reason I started this thread comes form a IDPA course of fire we shot a couple of months ago. One of the Gurus ( who is a law enforcement officer also a concealed carry instructor) was giving the walk thru. The course of fire consisted of 2  targets one yard apart and 2 yards from the shooter. The instruction was to load six round only, draw and fire 3 shots on each target  while retreating which will bring the gun to slide lock. At which time you will step behind cover which was 3 yards back from the start position reload and engage with a head shot 1 round each from behind cover. I questioned the SO on the reasoning of this scenario as a real life one, and he stated that the bad guys were wearing body armor. I said Ok I can buy that but why step behind cover to reload when the guys are less then 5 yards away? He got pissed and said that this is not IPSC and that this is what should be done in a real life encounter. Now with new shooters there and I being there for fun and the game I backed off and said Ok.

What I'm getting at is that these new shooters  have concealed permits and only have this IDPA club as their  experience in shooting, tactics and mental conditioning. I believe that they are being misled by people whom should know better. I think that the SO could have better served IDPA to state at the time I questioned the cover thing to point out that it is a GAME and NOT to take it seriously, rather learn the skills. I also think that I missed the opportunity by not stating that I would instead of using the cover to reload, I would use the cover as an opportunity to run like hell while reloading and if that wasn’t possible that we could discuss other options after the match. Since I won that stage and the match (not cause im good, the competion just wasn't skilled) I think that the NEW shooters would have had their eyes opened since someone with decent shooting skills would run like hell when given the opportunity instead of staying in a gunfight. Of course there are times when running is not an option, but I think you get my drift.

Which brings me to other questions. Is it our responsibility as open minded shooters, martial artists and armed citizens to instill in new shooters the reality of using a weapon for self-defense? Or do we just allow those whom have “superior” skills to misguide? What I was really looking for and did find  in some of your posts is ways to offer other alternatives/options without offending etc...

Webster Dictionary defines the words Train and Training.

Train- 1: to cause to grow as desired. 2:to form by instruction, discipline, or drill. 3: to make or become prepared for a test of skill.

Training- 1: the act, process, or method on one who trains 2: The skill, knowledge, or experience gained by one who trains.

In my opinion Matches are tests to see if you have been training in the skills required to win that particular game. Of course like you all have stated, the training you do to prepare for the test of games, improves ones skills in self-defense and combat but is just a  portion of the reality. So in my opinion IDPA/IPSC/ICORE/BULLEYE etc. is not training rather the motivation and guidelines for one too train in the skills required to win the game.

Thanks for allowing me to speak.

Bill

[Duane Thomas]

One thing that's always struck about most IPSC/IDPA scenarios is that, if we look at them as real life training, they make no sense because in the real world drawing your gun and shooting in such a situation would be either unnecessary - running would be a better option - or suicidal. But we're there to shoot, the course design says shoot, so we shoot. I wonder sometimes if that engrains in people a mindset that will have the effect, should they every find themselves in a real situation, because they've drawn their gun they'll feel they have to shoot, even when they shouldn't.

We do stuff in IPSC/IDPA, like choosing to take on, say, eight targets all of which represent armed bad guys, that would be suicidal in real life. But they're only paper, so we get away with it. We don't get hurt so we have no real reason NOT to do it. Using Simunitions in force-on-force training is better, but the problem is that even Simunitions pellets don't really hurt when you get hit, so, like paintball, knowing that if we get shot it's not really going to hurt, there is a tendency during Simunitions exercises to do things, to take chances, we'd never do if our opponents were real enemies with real guns loaded with real ammo.

I wish sometimes we could build a head-to-toe Kevlar bodysuit. And take it from someone who's been shot on Kevlar - twice - getting hit with a real bullet on soft body armor does hurt. Actually you lose some skin and wind up with a wound that looks like a bad burn. Give people the bullet resistant SWAT type goggles to protect their eyes. Then make their "targets" on the scenarios real people armed with .44 Special revolvers loaded with standard pressure ammo, or .45 autos loaded with softball - you know, the big, slow bullets that absolutely will stop on body armor. If we stood people outside a "house clearing" exercise in their Kevlar jammies and said to them, "Okay, I want you to go in there and deal with those eight hostile targets," THEN, when they know the competitors are not harmless paper targets, and the stuff they'll be hit with isn't gonna be paintballs or Simunitions pellets but real bullets that hurt like hell....I guarantee you many of them would decide to "solve the problem" by turning and walking away. And in the real world that's an excellent solution to the problem.

One thing I like very much about the "tactical matches" Marty Hayes runs at the Firearms Academy of Seattle is that he frequently sets up stages that can be solved by not shooting. One stage took place inside the FAS dark house, and the scenario was that we found ourself inside our own business at night during a black-out with at least one burglar. Just turning on the lights was not an option. You had a flashlight on you, but every time you used the light you had three seconds added to your time. Your score was the number of times you used the light, times three, minus penalties for any unneutralized targets. Oh, and you couldn't expose yourself to any unneutralized target for more than two seconds without engaging or it was a procedural penalty.

I had my SureFire 6Z. Inside the dark house I drew my gun and flashlight, mated my hands in the "cigar" hold. One quick squirt of light and I found the ONE target inside the house, fired it up and was out the DH's back door. My score was three seconds for one use of the flashlight. I was pretty pleased with myself.

When Master class USPSA/IDPA shooter Tim Bacus negotiated the stage he had a different approach. He entered the front door, looked and saw the back door, figured out he could make it across the house in less than two seconds and just ran out the back door! Never even fired a shot. At the match that meant he zeroed the stage - and since the low score wins that's a very good thing. In the real world, in the darkness, moving as fast as he was, it's highly unlikely the "burglar" would have been able to hit him. So no one got shot, no one got killed. Truly a superior solution to the problem.

[EricW]

DT,

Leave it t you to suck the joy out of my trained-killer combat fantasy...

I totally agree.  Usually the best thing to do is walk.  I've had to pull a gun for real twice, but always have been able to weasel my way out of triggering anybody.  Shooting is just the absolute, last, worst resort.  That little point gets lost all too frequently.  

E

[Billf]

Duane,

The Kevlar .45 softball thing is still a game if it would be merely to see who came out on top. I’ll bet that we would be amazed at the amount of people that would sign up to play. But I do understand  the point of view and appreciate the opinions.

Eric,

I agree that shooting is absolute and should be the last resort. In my opinion it is not the worst thing one can do. I think the worst thing is misguiding someones understanding of the responsibilities and consequences of deadly force. But then again maybe my understanding is misguided. You know what they say about opinions......but I sure like the way we swap them around here. This is a very good forum.

Bill

[Ron Ankeny]

Billf:

I started out in law enforcement over 20 years ago, then went into public school education. Through the years I have competed with many law enforcement shooting instructors and I have discussed these issues for hour upon hour with both trainers and students alike. This topic elicits a lot of different opinions, attitudes, and emotions. You might as well talk about politics, birth control, and religion.

Firearms "proficiency" and "defensive training" sometimes seem inseparable, but in a way they are also two totally different beasts. During my short lived law enforcement career I was involved in one way or another with four firearms related incidents and none of them would make a decent IDPA scenario. The best any shooting "game", "scenario", or "firearms proficiency training" can hope to do is to give the student an enviornment that puts him/her under a bit of pressure, and develops some skills that could be employed in "real life".

In my limited view of things, folks who get all hung up with the whole notion of killing little paper targets the "right way" (outside of law enforcement, self-defense classes, or military training) have a screw loose. IDPA, IPSC, NRA Action Pistol, and so on are shooting sports. They are games and they exist for the firearms enthusiast to enjoy. Shoot for your own reasons and don't let "attitudes" get to you.

[Billf]

Ron,

I do shoot for my own reasons, to have fun, as I know that all of you here do. That is why I shot my open classifiers with a limited gun (could not afford a open gun at the time, I did buy one for my son to shoot)and many times have shot my rev. and not X ed out the classifiers. No, I’m  not a sandbagger just there to have fun and don‘t X out nothing, nor do I ask too. I got started in IPSC because it was a whole lot of fun and even back when Bill W. and Ken H. and the others were shooting IPSC we all knew it was a game and not many (to my knowledge pushed too hard the blood and guts thing). I love shooting that is why I shoot IDPA. I think that forums and threads like this one gives us(me) the opportunity to send new shooters to, so they can get a different point of view from knowledgeable people like you all. This is a good thing.

I just got back from shooting my 3rd IDPA match. It was a hell of a lot of fun. I heard a couple of times how IPSC is non practical, and that IDPA is real life stuff etc. (before I shut down my E ears)and I know such attitude even come  from the IDPA website. Its just irritating. But I think you might get a kick out of this. I won every stage, I even questioned the SO’s on how to shoot the stage and shot it like instructed. The part I think you would like is, while unloading and showing clear after a couple of courses, (I knew they were killer without looking) I said to the SO “Well now, that is how an IPSC shooter does it.” Hee Hee...... Boy does that irritate them there gurus.....But you know what, some of the new guys are starting to ask me my opinion, and  using some of the opinions spoken here, I think we won today. I gave 1 of the newbies this addy.

Bill

ty27467

[Billf]

Duane,

LOL, I think i would play too......

A few years back we were qualifing the  sherriffs dept. We had reactive targets and  movers on one drill that did not go toward qualifing but thought it would be a great excercise afterwards. We gave the officers the sceneio up front, there where 4 bad guys possible movers etc. they had to neutralize all that were justifiable. One of the officers whom I respect greatly, opened the door, saw the mover coming towards him and caught a glimps of 2 other bad guys. He instantly slammed the door shut and saif F this, Im calling for back up.......In my book he is the man.

Bill

[Duane Thomas]

One of the officers whom I respect greatly, opened the door, saw the mover coming towards him and caught a glimps of 2 other bad guys. He instantly slammed the door shut and saif F this, Im calling for back up.......In my book he is the man.

I'm with you. I've always thought there was a lot of truth in the old saying, "The best way to win a gunfight is not to be there when it happens." And if you gotta be there....bring lots of friends.

[Harmon]

DT that man you speak of is the man...i wish somebody would do that where im at.

they would probably give you TWO FTDRs and a couple of procedurals..

if i had to leave that door open myself, i would want an MP5(its a handgun isnt it?)

theres nothing like a .08 split you dont have to work for anyways here is my theory on practical shooting

clipboard+shot timer+rules=game. you+badguy+no rules=real life... i actually hope to get DQed from a real gunfight. "ok, you harmon, you shot the badguy three times and reloaded your pistol not from behind cover and without retaining the magazine all while facing uprange...DQ, next shooter please" thats what i want to hear at a gunfight

i shoot ipsc because i know its a game, the walkthrough cosnsists of showing you where the targets are, telling you the start posistion and how its scored.

IPSC is about as defensive related as checkers, but so is idpa, they just wont admit it.

words really cant capturet the look of a die hard IDPA range officer when you tell them the stage is BS, especially when they want me to download my glock,,wasnt the Idea of 17+1 so you wouldnt have to reload in a real gunfight?

I shoot USPSA, and i will shoot IDPA and skeet or sporting clays.. i think the new shooters in any sport will have more fun if they realize these are all games, and probably wont happen in real life.

i have never seen a dove fly like a clay pigeon...but i guess it could happen

[Mayonaise]

you+badguy+no rules=real life...

I hope you have a really good lawyer.

words really cant capturet the look of a die hard IDPA range officer when you tell them the stage is BS, especially when they want me to download my glock,,wasnt the Idea of 17+1  so you wouldnt have to reload in a real gunfight?

You think that's an original thought? Great attitude to take to a match. I feel sorry for the SO/MD already.

[KentG]

Uhh, Maybe Im looking at too simply, anytime you use a timer on any type of shooting sport it ceases to be "training" and becomes a game.

Not that you dont improve your basic shooting skills but both are still games. IMO.

[Steve Moneypenny]

telling a SO his stage is BS... thats a great way to make friends and impress the person who is about to have control over your score.

it is a GAME people get over it. the only training you get is in the proficiency of handling your firearm.

If you want to train go somewhere and TRAIN don't go anywhere where the words "match, Competition, or any other words conducive to a "sport" " would be used

it's never good to chastize our VOULENTEER officials

[Ted Murphy]

I think there is a natural evolution for many IDPA clubs. I have seen quite a few IDPA clubs started by a range's tactical group or a bunch of tactically minded shooters. For the first season or so they are hopped up on being gunfighters.

After a while they mellow out a bit, plus they get an influx of new shooters who finally let these people realize it's a game. If you return to the club in a year or two you see that there has been a philosophy shift.

You will always have the Chipmunks out there that think they are Ninjas cause they shoot IDPA- boonie hat and all; but for the most part as the club matures they will start to look at it as what it is- a sporting event.

As far as what Kelly has said. Some of IDPA's rules are difficult to accept. The kneeling rule for instance. I would much rather squat. Even though the rulebook gets high and mighty about it, the rule is not in effect to enforce someone's opinion of tactics as much as make it easier to officiate. Requiring a knee for low cover stops SO's from having to determine just how much behind cover the shooter is, and cuts out that mess of a judgement call, not unlike determining a strike zone in baseball.

Same goes for the ammunition management rules. They wanted to draw a line, so they decided that it was what it is. At the two clubs I run I have a few guys who disagree and they shoot the sport how they think is more "street". They rack up the procedurals and could care less. I think they show great character in that they do what they say. People love to rationalize why they want to do a speed load for instance. The rules forbid it- it is that simple. It does not make it the tactically sound rule- just what IDPA expects of its shooters.

Same goes for tactical sequence say. Makes more sense for a wheelgun , a back up auto, or maybe a 1911 than a hi cap gun. Make sure you have enough ammo before you start double tapping someone. Some people believe in that idea, others think it is total bunk. It is in the rule book however, so expect to encounter it at a match or two.

You will encounter arrogance at some level at most shooting events, don't forget. I'll never forget the 2700 match I was at where the BE shooters where sneering at the USPSA guys, figuring that if it came down to it, they could just sit out of range of the USPSA shootersand pop them. I thought they were completely full of it- that most the USPSA guys I know practice at ranges far beyond their 50 yds limits, but I kept my mouth shut, shot the match, and got what I wanted out of it. YMMV.

Ted

[Liota]

telling a SO his stage is BS... thats a great way to make friends and impress the person who is about to have control over your score.

SMoney,

I think you just hit the nail on the head as to why I tend to shy away from certain activities in some places. I earn my score, penalties and all. With respect to scoring, the RO/SO/Whatever's only job is to read the targets and enforce rules. When the enforcement of rules slides into the nebulous zone (e.g., an extra 20 points in penalties because you're a (fill in the name of the other sport) shooter), it's time for the RO/SO/Whatever to hand over the timer and responsibility. Enforcement of the rules should never be personal. I have RO'ed people I truly don't like. They have never once gotten a different treatment from people I do like.

Liota

[geezer-lock]

I already have a discussion about defining “practical” in the Stage Design forum so I’m going to skip that here. I am still amazed that this “training” thing keeps coming up. Someone put up the definition earlier so there is no need to repeat that but I would like to point out that the IDPA rule book contains the word training exactly two (2) times. The context is this:

“ Limited Vickers Count scoring should ONLY be used on standard exercise courses of fire. All speed shoot and scenario courses should use standard Vickers Count (unlimited # of shots permitted) so the shooters will always be training themselves to pick up any shot that doesn't feel like it was under control.”

And this:

“IDPA SAFETY OFFICER TRAINING GUIDELINES”

The rulebook, for all of its faults also has this on the very first page:

“Following are the official rules governing "Defensive Pistol" Competition as a shooting discipline”.

“THE CONDUCT OF DEFENSIVE PISTOL COMPETITION”

It doesn’t get any plainer than that.

Like many of you I have heard others SAY that IDPA is training (it was even in the video of the S&W shoot on OLN) but I firmly believe that it is good practice for improving pistol craft and marksmanship (see TGO’s remarks earlier). I have been MD at 30 IDPA events, designed and set up over 125 COF’s and shot in hundreds more. I don’t train, I don’t teach tactics, and I don’t teach self defense.

What I do is provide a safe, friendly, structured environment where folks can have some fun with their firearms. The worst day I ever had at the range beat the hell out of any day I ever had at work.

Be safe, have fun...shoot to win

geezer

David Cross

[Gun Geek]

Dictionary.com says:

v. trained, train·ing, trains

v. tr.

1) To coach in or accustom to a mode of behavior or performance.

2) To make proficient with specialized instruction and practice. See Synonyms at teach.

3) To prepare physically, as with a regimen: train athletes for track-and-field competition.

4) To cause (a plant or one's hair) to take a desired course or shape, as by manipulating.

5) To focus on or aim at (a goal, mark, or target); direct. See Synonyms at aim.

6) To let drag behind; trail.

I would say that IDPA (and IPSC) fit the definition as given in 1, 2 & maybe 3. So to answer the original question about IDPA being training, well, of course it is.

Look at it this way:

Any IDPA or IPSC shooter will be more proficient and effective in protecting themselves, if need be, because they have competed in the sport, than they otherwise would be (anybody disagree?) (looks like #'s 1, 2 to me).

Now, will I be as good as my local SWAT team, or the SF guys kicking in doors in Iraq. Probably not. Will I be better than the tactibillies that show up once to a match and get their ass kicked? You betcha!

These sports don't directly address mindset, which in an ugly time can have a lot to with your survival. Mindset training is a little too hard for the public stomach and we would likely make the news in a very poor light if they saw that stuff.

[Practical Use]

Training - yes, no, yes, no.

Perhaps it could be best described as practicing what you have already been trained for. Assuming, of course that you choose to use it that way. On the other hand, I certainly do use it to practice some things, and ignore others for the purpose of competition.

You can make of it what you choose.

[MBaneACP]

Wow...cool thread! Reminds me again of why I really, really like this Brian's forum. Also reminds me that Rob is one of the more thoughtful, reflective people around on issues of shooting, defense, etc. Dude, if I ever get you on *my* teelvision show, that's the stuff we'll talk about (LOL)!

This weekend I was reviewing rough cuts of upcoming episodes, including the one on the National Tactical Invitational—the episode on Bill Roger's school ran last week—so I've had similar discussions a bunch of times recently. An on-going sub-theme for this season has been one I stole wholesale from Ralph Mroz...that the range of what we might call "defensive" shooting has three basic components: basics skills (safety, marksmanship, drawing, reloading the gun, etc.), range skills (engaging single and multiple targets quickly and accurately, reloading under pressure, changing positions, shooting on the move, basic use of cover, etc.) and, finally, skills learned in simulations where someone is actually shooting back (paintball, Airsoft, Simunitions, whatever).

Ralph points out that even if you practice all three areas religiously and, by whatever standards are applied in each of the three areas, you're pretty good, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll survive a life-threatening encounter. Any such encounter, whether it's combat or a street mugging, is a pure *chaos* system, and not necessarily tethered to the "laws" of cause and effect. S&@t happens. Skills are important, but the universe doesn't deal in human-centric concepts like "fair."

Little piece of weird irony...there's a segment in the NTI show where I try to talk myself out of an aggressive panhandling/robbery scenario without pulling my gun and end up arrested by "Sheriff" Vickie Farnam. Amazingly similar "scenario" happens to me in the Real World...constrained space, obvious exits blocked, multiple pan-panhandlers. Alpha pan-handler in partially zipped leather jacket grins and demands "All you spare change; all your money!" Then he starts to reach into his jacket. Things get very, very slow, and—after YEARS of hearing that there was no civilian useage for the "fast draw"—I just plain outdrew the guy. As soon as my gun cleared it's holster and started toward his face, he threw up his hands and started screaming, "I don't want this! I don't want this! I give up!" He ends up in the pokey; I get to go home. Chaos is chaos. Any kind of training is a good thing.

mb