MidwayUSA & NRA Bianchi Cup

[NRAActionPistol]

All,

We are looking for some advice or information on the scheduling of the future Bianchi Cup Championships. It has always been a struggle trying to juggle dates of this historic championship.

We believe holding this Championship this early in the year, prevents junior shooters from competing as well as not giving new competitors an opportunity to prepare for the Championship.

This in combination that it is held the week/weekend before Memorial Day and being (4) four days long, we believe this has kept our competitor numbers down.

We are looking to renew Range & Hotel contracts for the future, so we are looking into changing some dates in the following formats:

Thursday-Sunday before Memorial Day

Thursday-Saturday before Memorial Day, shortening the Championship by (1) one Day.

Moving it into June, without interfering with another National Championship.

Please let us know your opinions, but keep the following in mind as they are NOT negotiable.

Camp Perry - National Matches start the 1st week of July, a large amount of the NRA Competition Staff spend up to (3) three weeks there in support of these Matches.

The Bianchi Cup format can NOT be changed, i.e. Awards, Social Events or it is no longer the Bianchi Cup, and the (Official Bianchi Cup) and Championship will be dissolved.

Thanks for your help.

NRA Pistol Department

[DWFAN]

I like the weekend its on, but a day shorter or 1 less weekday would be good.

Friday-Sunday before Memorial Day

Thursday-Sunday before memorial day

[Resjudicata]

I like the weekend its on, but a day shorter or 1 less weekday would be good.

Friday-Sunday before Memorial Day

Thursday-Sunday before memorial day

I would agree. There seem to be quite a few of us who are cross over shooters from USPSA and other sports. Many USPSA major matches start in June. So, it seems like keeping the same week(end) but fewer weekdays would be good for us and make for juniors missing less school days.

Chris

[Toolguy]

Sometimes with rainstorms we need the extra time to get everyone through all the courses. If we go Thurs. - Sat. we might have to plan on finishing the match Sat. morning with the Speed Event Sat. afternoon.

[kimmbeckwith]

OK you all asked!!! I think getting the Championship away from the end of the school year is a good move!!! I have been saying this for YEARS, if we want to get the younge competitors (our future) involved. Is the Super Bowl at the first of the season in the NFL? If we are going to change dates why not look to the latter part of the summer or fall after regionals are held! (not July in Columbia! That would be brutal heat!) It is so hard for us in the midwest to have enough practice time to be up to speed and ready for a Nations event with snow, yes we had snow in March. Not withstanding people in Wyoming, the Dakoto's etc. August before the schools start up again and if the event moves from Columbia, different locations weather sensitive to August could be looked at.

[Resjudicata]

August in the midwest? Um, I could go for June maybe but August is a bit excessive in the heat area. It's unsafe for people to be passing out with a loaded gun in their hands.

Chris

ETA: But, on the bright side the humidity is so high in August that you could see your hits/misses because of the vapor trail from the bullet.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Resjudicata

[Chuck Anderson]

Couple questions to ask.

1. Is the range going to get any larger, either through improvements (adding bays/movers/target setups) or moving to a different location. My understading from talking to the NRA is that they may hit their capacity this year. If you can't add any more shooters, why are you trying to attract them? This range is very limited in capacity. You can't just add people to the schedule, you can only run "x" number of people through the two movers. If more bays are added, I can easily see adding people. If you're considering moving the event out of Columbia, then that would also affect what dates are available.

2. What new shooters are you trying to attract? New shooters to competition or draw from other shooting disciplines. If you're looking to draw from other disciplines it's important to avoid conflicts with other major matches, ICORE IRC, USPSA Area matches, etc.

3. What is different about AP than other disciplines that fail to draw Jrs? USPSA has moved their National match to the summer in the past in an effort to attract more Juniors. We added maybe two or three. The Juniors that really want to come will come regardless of the time of year. I'm bringing one with me to the Cup this year for his first time. He's missing school, he's dealing with it. The next weeked is the IRC and they have many Juniors that come despite missing a bit of school.

My preference, if you want to increase the size of the match, move it. Put it somewhere with enough bays to make it a two day match, three including the shootoff's and awards. Finish up on Sunday instead of Saturday. Doesn't change anything as far as time off for those travelling but it would make it easier for the locals. You can't grow the Cup in the current venue. You can make it a guaranteed sellout there and turn it back into an invitational, but you're capped at how many people you can run. I think you're going to be very close to that this year.

[gm iprod]

Sit back this could take a while.

If it has to be moved, then the best thing I can think of right now (give me time) would be to move it back one or two weeks. Any further into June than that will kill the staff that also cover Camp Perry. I like the fact that it is in Columbia at the same venue from day ONE. Some history to the match that most other matches just don't have. Moving it too far from the current dates, just as we are getting the match expanding, is likely to be a bad thing.

However not moving EVER is something that may be unwise, right now it stays in Columbia for I should say 5 or more years and imporve the ranges. No other range has the facility to run it the way the match is configured right now and changing the overall configuration would be counter productive at this time. I suspect that the range in Oklahoma would be the best alternate from what I know. Any local input on better facilities is welcomed.

Expand the range. I think it is possible. Adding in an extra Mover (making three) would be a good start. Next to the existing lower Mover may work, wher eth eplates currently are situated (raise the hill behind or built a containment wall). 2 x 3 bays of Plates to the left of the Upper Mover. An extra row on practical to the right. I believe an extra row of barricades is already in place or planned.

DITCH THE SHOOT OFFS? USe that day to run the extra day of MATCH shooting. I know alot of guys like the shootoffs, add in more side matches and spread the prizes out to that. More shooting for everyone not just the top 4 in each division, grade, sight set up, age or sexual inclination.

4 day match 7hours per day. more like 3.5days really but it will add up to 28hours of range availability.

3 movers = 420 slots

6 sets of plates = 560 slots (500 for match, 60 for continuations)

4 lanes practical = 460 slots

4 lanes barricade = 460 slots

Big dogs shoot Plates or Mover last Saturday Morning?? Anyone else in HM also shoots that as well??

Great for TV.

3day match 8hours per day. 24hours of shooting

3 Movers = 360slots

6 plates = 480

4 practical and barricade = 400 each.

It would be easier to improve the range at Columbia that build a whole new one, ask USSA.

Dates of Match if we change.

On one week start Wednesday after Memorial Day (30th May 2012, Banquet 2nd June). Still allows foreigners to arrive, shoot a match (Michigan or Bates City for example) one or two weeks before.

Intended calendar.

Using the above start date look at getting Bates City to run their match essentially the same weekend it currently is (in 2012 that will be 19th or 20th), Michigan Regional and State Champs Sat / Sun Memorial weekend (26th and 27th May 2012)

Many people like to shoot Michigan on the way down. I think last year there was a least 14 or us that were there and at the Cup. This year there is likely to be about 25 that will shoot both. Weather is not really nasty hot and humid, but will still need some care.

If we go on one more week. Then many will not be able to easily do the other matches. But this is just plan A, I have plenty of ideas. You may just have to drift the entire calendar along a little at a time so that not too many are inconvenienced. Although there will always be those that are disadvantaged by any change in the timimg and that should be minimised.

If either the NRA, Sponsors and or Green Valley Rifle and Pistol throw a lot of money at making improvements then some semblance of stability and guaranteed tenure is prudent. Don't throw a chunk of change at range mods and bugger off in two years. That would be most unwise. No return on the money, especially for sponsors.

Significant improvements to the practice range would be helpful. I believe that there has been some effort by some hardy souls from GVPRC in this direction and they should be applauded. I know most of your real practice should have been completed before you pull up at the hotel, but a bit of confidence building range time is nice. The backlog there is sometimes difficult to deal with, the old hands have a better handle on the deal the newbies can sometimes be a little over awed by the Zoo that it sometimes becomes.

If I have missed anything I am sure someone will let me know.

[Chuck Anderson]

Setting up an AP range is not terribly difficult. USSA in Oklahoma has 90% of the setup already in place, but they are in receivership with a bank, a new owner has not been identified since the previous owner killed himself. I'm thinking Oklahoma is out. It wouldn't surprise me if Universal Shooting Academy in Florida would be willing to host it, and they would do an excellent job I'm sure.

I'm not really suggesting a move. But one of two things needs to happen. Either increase the size of the range and parking in Columbia to hold more people, or move the match. Increasing the length of the match will get you more spots but make it much more difficult to get new people to take so much time off work. I know the international guys take a ton of time off work to come, but we could do just about anything to the match and they'd still come. The trick is to make it easier for new shooters to get in. Easy answer would be to break it in half. Run it 4 or 5 days, but schedule shooters for only the first or second half and don't require them to stick around for any reason. But I think this would ruin the match. This really is the only match I shoot anymore that feels like a true championship. The pagaentry that goes with this match is really like a World Shoot for IPSC. I don't want to see that go away.

[gm iprod]

Chuck,

Agree on most of your points. Some work is needed to keep the mystique this match has, but grow it without loosing sight of where it came from.

http://www.foreclosurerepos.com/blog/foreclosure/shooting-academy-facing-foreclosure/

Maybe if we have to move the NRA could bail out the USSA?

[bradhe]

It has been more than 25 years since my last Cup but I intend to come again. Fewer weekdays would be good. Setting up a schedule so that you don't have to show up for an anfternoon shooter meeting the day before and hence have to travel the day before that would be good. Scheduling far in advance, maybe the next 3 years, would be good

[Allan H]

As I travel from OS it doesnt really matter, however if it stays on Memorial day weekend it would be better for locals if shooting finished Sun and travel home holiday mon.

3 days is a long time for people shooting 1 gun. In Aus we have changed things a little so that only 2 gun shooters shoot 3 days and 1 gun shooters 2 days.

2 full days of shooting would give you 240 competitors and the third day would allow 120 shooting a 2nd gun- this is based on mover through put.

We try and shoot 2nd gun in one day (4 events) to get it out of the way, and then all competitors are competing equally with their primary gun.

Therefore based on Memorial day weekend, a 1 gun shooter could fly in fri night shoot 2 days, presentation sun night and fly home mon.

[gm iprod]

Brad,

The idea behind the schedule, as it is, is to get the whole experience, not just turn up shoot and go home. Having to be there Tuesday (and early is best) for a competitor meeting and the equipment check is sensible We travel back from the Michigan match on the Monday, just cruise in no hassles. If you arrive late Tuesday or worse the morning of your first day at the range and your gun is ever so slightly out of spec, you are toast for time.

I just want to see more shooting and do mor eshooting. With me shooting two guns I have enough to do for the three days and I usually leave the side matches alone unitl I have all my matches for the big show sorted, then run around like a goon for 3 or so hours playing catch up on the side matches.

But as the numbers increase we will have less people shooting two guns. Last year there was heaps, can't remember the numbers but even Doug had a go I think.

I understand pushing the match back one day will cause a bunch of issues with local hotels. Huge parties usually arrive Sunday for Memorial daya nd with say 1/2 the shooters on the way out of town it all works nicely for the Hotels as they can hammer the rate on long weekends.

Edited March 18, 2011 by gm iprod

[Chuck Anderson]

The longer format is great for people who want the whole "Bianchi" experience. But until we get them there and try, they won't know. I nearly didn't go last year because of the length of the match. This year I'm getting in on the 19th, shooting the three gun match the weekend before and I'll be all Bianchi starting Monday morning (or Sunday night if I get done soon enough) Convincing someone who has never been to the match is the difficulty. The camraderie on the practice range is what's bringing me back. Having Bruce, Tony, Dave, Robbie, Scott, Jess, Mark, Doug and a dozen others showing me how things are done on the practice range and making sure I had my head on my shoulders instead of where it was when I showed up is well worth the extra time for me. I do really like the idea or the two gunners doing three days, and the one gunners getting through in two. You can still show up early and get everything else, just compress it if you need to. The issue might be scheduling though. One or two new competitor meetings, one or two registrations and gun checks. Might be a little tricky.

[50GI-Jess]

Hi fellow shooters and friends,

Here's something thats been on my mind for some years !

In my opinion Bianchi Cup needs a complete facelift. Think about it ! NRA can barely scrape 150-200 shooters togther for this event, thats supposed to be a world class format competition.

I've been in the whole action pistol game for over 25 yrs. and this will be my 11th Cup. However, as much I love the Cup, the NRA needs to get out of the 50-60's mode when it comes to the dynamics of action shooting.

I've never been at one single Cup without hearing complaints from both experienced and professionel competitors. Getting the guns approved always causes "this/that" problem, instead of simplifying the rules. How many times does one hear this conversation at a IPSC, Steel Challenge match etc.! Most RO's are very pro, but some almost has no idea about whats really going on.

I love the practice range (actually camping there) and the well organized social events, but the whole match is too long for "normal" working folks, which by itself outrule another 100 or so from competing. Don't forget that probably 30% or more are from out of country, and has a lot of travel to do at both ends.

The NRA should consider either upgrading the existing range or move it to a top notch facility somerwhere in the heartland. The mover. should not dictate the whole flow of a match of this reputation and international format.

Lastly, it's very disrespectful to all sponsors, not displaying/saying how much they have sponsored to each winning competitor, when they walk to the stage on banquet night. This throughout all div. stagewins down the line.

Im a NRA life member and support them. However. it's time to get rid of "there's them and us", which I sometimes detect a little bit of at the Cup.

Well, just my opinion.

Jess Christensen

[Spangler]

I'm pretty much stuck on something I think Chuck said...How do we try to plan future dates with an effort toward increasing youth and other shooters when we can't even handle the current numbers? Not sure he said it that way, but that's what I heard... Here it is, about 10 weeks before the Cup and we still do not know if we can shoot 2 guns (whether we paid or not)... There has been much discussion over the number of shooters, but keep in mind many do shoot 2 guns. Trying to plan for 300 shooters will require ??? many shooting times considering multi gun shooters?

I think growing the sport is a great idea and I will be one of the first to volunteer to help do so, but having spent a LOT of time growing businesses, I am sure it does not happen without a solid plan that allows for that growth. At this point, if we plan for growth and actually get it, we can't handle it.

I guess the question posed to us is strictly regarding dates. I have only been to 1 cup, But I think the current format and days are fine, PARTICULARLY for those shooting multigun. For us to grow the sport at the current location, I think there needs to be a solid plan to grow the venue first. I know some of that has been done, but apparently not enough since we can't even guarantee shooters can shoot what they want THIS year.

As Alan often says..

Just my .02

Mark

Edited March 19, 2011 by Spangler

[Action Pistolero]

The squadding for the second gun is going on now. I believe it was originally thought that they would get 275+ and then the range couldn't handle more than 300 entries. Two gun entries only take up 30 to 35 shooting slots. That was before the price increase for the 2nd gun so we'll see.

As far as dates go, as long as I am not travelling on Memorial Day I don't care.

[Greg in VA]

Got my 2nd gun squadding in the mail today.

Greg in VA

[JRB]

Sorry guy's i think i made a booboo.

Any way, i have too stick my big mouth in on this one.

Is it possible to move the match to later in the year, say late September or early October.

If this was done those of us who don't get outside until April, because of the weather, have a chance to shoot some matches.

With haveing the Bianchi in late May, it does not allow for many matches under the belt.

The Bianchi i think, should be the last match ( culmanation ) of the shooting season, as it is the largest and most prestigeous match.

Can you give me a little warning before you all want to shoot me, i need time to place on my body armor.

Be safe

Russell

[Action Pistolero]

Sorry guy's i think i made a booboo.

Any way, i have too stick my big mouth in on this one.

Is it possible to move the match to later in the year, say late September or early October.

If this was done those of us who don't get outside until April, because of the weather, have a chance to shoot some matches.

With haveing the Bianchi in late May, it does not allow for many matches under the belt.

The Bianchi i think, should be the last match ( culmanation ) of the shooting season, as it is the largest and most prestigeous match.

Can you give me a little warning before you all want to shoot me, i need time to place on my body armor.

Be safe

Russell

Hey Ole Melon Head,

If that could be done it would be great but, and here's the big but, between wrapping up Camp Perry and committee meetings I don't believe it will happen. You could always move to NZ and then Bianchi would be at the end of the shooting season.

You like the cold and you shoot a revolver so what's the problem? It's not like you have to try to retrieve your brass in the snow.

[Chuck Anderson]

Sorry guy's i think i made a booboo.

Any way, i have too stick my big mouth in on this one.

Is it possible to move the match to later in the year, say late September or early October.

If this was done those of us who don't get outside until April, because of the weather, have a chance to shoot some matches.

With haveing the Bianchi in late May, it does not allow for many matches under the belt.

The Bianchi i think, should be the last match ( culmanation ) of the shooting season, as it is the largest and most prestigeous match.

Can you give me a little warning before you all want to shoot me, i need time to place on my body armor.

Be safe

Russell

The downside is it would conflict with many other shooting sports, Steel Challenge, USPSA, IDPA, and several three gun matches have their Nationals, or World Championships between August and early November. I think the dedicated hard core guys would still shoot Bianchi but you'd lose out on a lot of crossover shooters. I know my shooting schedule is now Bianchi in the spring till May then transition to USPSA and three gun practice. Put it at the end of the year and I can tell you which one would give.

[JRB]

Ok, Ok i give.

I just had no choice, thought it might work.

I guess i was wrong.

I'll be there anyway, trying to shoot a good score.

See you in May.

Be safe

Russell

[Chuck Anderson]

No problem with suggestions. It's just a matter of what the NRA thinks would be most beneficial. Who their target audience. I'd imagine 100 of the people who shoot Bianchi would shoot it no matter when they put the match. Another group would shoot it anytime it's reasonable, read not July or December in Missouri. I'm okay with it pretty much anytime before June 1. After that my scheudle gets so tight I doubt I could wedge it in, at least and still have a wife to come home to.

[Spangler]

I also like the idea of having it later (Sept/Labor Day) so we have more matches, but I think that is more important to those of us with less experience...Easy for me to say, all I have to do is show up and shoot, not do all the work.

Of course, I've never understood why NASCAR runs the biggest race of the year in Feb either

So Chuck, are you arguing to have it before or after June 1??

Edited March 22, 2011 by Spangler

[Chuck Anderson]

I would say before June. There are an awful lot of shooters that plan their season around Bianchi. AP till May, then USPSA or SCSA or IMGA afterwards. If you keep it in MO, the summer is effectively out. September-early Nov is so packed with matches there is not an available weekend that doesn't conflict with something major that would draw shooters away. Anything after mid October in MO and you get very iffy on weather as well. If you think the mover in heavy rain is bad, try shooting it in a foot of snow.