Gun Geek Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I was asked for a recco on a gun yesterday. A guy was deciding between a regular steel 45 (Kimber Custom) and a Lightweight (Kimber Tactical). We went to a shop that had both (and I shoot a steel 45). The weight difference was AMAZING. The gun pointed nice, and you could move very quickly with it. My biggest concern was that the muzzle flip generated by a lighter gun might slow things down. What do you think? Kimber also has an Officer's model in this same style. Now that could be a heck of a carry gun! Any one with some experience with these lightweights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I had the lightweight OM Frame/Commander length Upper hybrid a few years ago and didn't notice much of a difference in muzzle flip. The gun was superbly accurate and the sights returned to alignment quickly.... ....and it was pretty.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 As long as it returns quickly it doesn't really matter how flippy it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reneet Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 My concern would be durability with the alloy frame which I believe is why you don't see many in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I am with reneet, how long will it lasts depends on how many full house loads you shoot thru it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I have a lightweight commander in .45 that I've taken through four Gunsite classes. It was my carry gun for 15 years, and saw regular practice (and two incidents and one hit and run). All it has ever seen is full-power hardball. The frame is cracked where they all crack, at the point where the dust cover joins the frame. Near as I can recall, that crack happened sometime in 1988. The gun now has a Bar-sto barrel in it, and with Hornady 200 gr XTP shoots like a bullseye gun. I'm not going to worry until sometime after the dustcover falls off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 24, 2004 Author Share Posted March 24, 2004 I have a lightweight commander in .45 that I've taken through four Gunsite classes. It was my carry gun for 15 years, and saw regular practice (and two incidents and one hit and run). All it has ever seen is full-power hardball. The frame is cracked where they all crack, at the point where the dust cover joins the frame. Near as I can recall, that crack happened sometime in 1988.The gun now has a Bar-sto barrel in it, and with Hornady 200 gr XTP shoots like a bullseye gun. I'm not going to worry until sometime after the dustcover falls off. Wowza! Who made this shoot'n iron? Just to be clear, is the frame an alloy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Colt, Lightweight Commander, made ca. 1975. Alloy frame, which is now turning sort of a purple color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I have both, and started with the lightweight (" pro tactical). But the sights (3 dot) weren't to my liking. Rather thasn have the slide cut/milled, I got another (Custom Target II). My lightweight, was a 4", and I prefer the 5" rod/spring assembly. I put 3K rounds through the alum frame, it looks newer than the steel frame. From day one, they both shot more naturally for me than other pistols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 FWIW, I don't think the weight or absence thereof is a big deal for sight recovery. Having *some* weight forward on the gun *does* help to stabilize the gun side to side when you're shooting fast. I've noticed a phenomena at speed that's a lot like "pilot induced oscillations" flying an airplane. Light guns demand total grip neutrality as it takes far less force to overcome the intertia of the lightweight gun. I think that's a lot of the reason behind why a heavy gun is "easier" to shoot - especially if you're a newer shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Light and fast vs. heavy and stable. Man has that one been discussed to death. I have shot several IDPA matches with my carry gun, a Kimber CDP Pro Carry. I guess it's kind of the equivalent of a lightweight commander. I have also shot a lot of IDPA matches with my Les Baer PII. I would much rather shoot the full size gun. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 FWIW, just anoth guy's opinion.... I shot the standard long dustcover gun in IPSC for four years. that is after two years in IDPA with a Kimber, standard all steel 5". I have recently switch to the lighter gun, a LW S_I with a short dustcover. My draw is quicker and more consistent THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN, my transitions are more natural and quicker and my bill drills are faster than ever. Additionally I shaved .50 seconds off my best plate rack time, and that was with the gun I had known all those years. I know we in IPSC are all gamers who can't shoot and just have high tech gear, but for me, those heavy guns and long dustcovers don't work. It took me a while to figure it out, but ESPecially in IDPA with shorter ranges and lower power factors I'm a fan of light and quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Light and fast vs. heavy and stable. The same question arises from: 1) .45" vs 9mm 2) U.S. made vs European car engines 3) F16 vs F14 fighters and so on...and so on...and so on... This is really a "personal preference" topic, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyRock Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 I have a lightweight commander in .45 that I've taken through four Gunsite classes. It was my carry gun for 15 years, and saw regular practice (and two incidents and one hit and run). All it has ever seen is full-power hardball. The frame is cracked where they all crack, at the point where the dust cover joins the frame. Near as I can recall, that crack happened sometime in 1988.The gun now has a Bar-sto barrel in it, and with Hornady 200 gr XTP shoots like a bullseye gun. I'm not going to worry until sometime after the dustcover falls off. Sorry I came in late, Patrick. I'm considering using my LW Commander in IPSC as well as carry. Is there any bullet shape you recommend *not* be used, or does it really make any difference? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Hmm, In IDPA I think the heavier gun (less recoil) would help more because most of the time there is a vision barrier you have to "pie" around or something. In IPSC since the tgts are more often in the open I think Transitions would be helped by a lighter gun.. All that said the difference I think is probably pretty small and IMO is more mental/personal than "This is what will work" The good shooters do what works for them. IMO its like PF, if you dont "THINK/BELIEVE its a huge problem it isn't. "Normally" the guys really debating this kinda stuff at the clubs I frequent re the same ones worring about getting their PF right up to the edge. They would be much better off debating/working on the correct Practice/dryfire drills. I am NOT saying thats the case with anyone here, its just an observation on my part. Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unleashed Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 So, can we get a consensus on the durability of an alloy frame 1911 with full-power loads? I am fixing to buy a Kimber Tactical Custom II with alloy frame. From the moment I picked this gun up, I was in love. I own both a TRP Operator and SV long dust cover, but neither of them compare to the feel of the Kimber. I don't know exactly what the difference was, but the gun just indexes perfect! I am just not so sure the alloy can handle full-power .45 loads. What do you guys think? Edwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Someone clarify what a "full power" .45 load is. Is the minimum power factor in CDP at "full power" status, or well below that? I have my eye on a kimber Tactical and I am interested in the outcome of this thread before I bid. Thanks, from a newbie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unleashed Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Well, my definition of a full power load is equivalent to what the military issues for the 1911. A 230 FMJ at about 830fps...the last time I put one through the chrono. I would say just about anything that makes the old IPSC major power factor (175). There are some defense loads out there that go well above and beyond (so does the mil-spec load for that matter). I have some 230 Golden Sabers that push about 950! Hopefully that will clear things up. Edwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Full Power would be +P ammo in my book. There have been many tests done on the newer alloys lately and IMO if the gun is set up right from the factory and using the correct alloy in the first place you are probably good for many (20K plus) rounds. You may have to change the feed ramp to a steel insert at some point or to a ramped barrel. I think "I" would be more concious of my cleaning and care of the gun than I am with a steel one. SVI is or was putting inserts in their alloy frame single stack rails and according to one of their shooters they are good for at least 100K before replacement, they replace the inserts apparently. The Alloys we use now are FAR better than they were even a few yrs ago For a primary carry gun I wouldnt give it a second thought, for an IPSC or IDPA gun that you will shoot 1K a month through I think you might wear out a Kimber within 2 or three years. ALL the above is based on my reading not actual experience so I may be 100% wrong but thats My "gun rag reading" expert opinion. Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryfox Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 For what it is worth I shoot a para-16-40 in ESP (heavy full size) and a Kimber pro carry in CDP (aluminum frame 4") I alwaws score better with the para. Of course there aer other variables than the weight of the aluminum frame but, I wish the Kimber weighed more when I shoot it and am glad it is light when I carry it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 For you folks looking at an aluminum frame Kimber, there is an issue with steel magazine followers chewing the frame up just below the feed ramp. I just looked at my CDP Pro and it looks like a rabid beaver has been knawing on the frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryfox Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 For you folks looking at an aluminum frame Kimber, there is an issue with steel magazine followers chewing the frame up just below the feed ramp. I just looked at my CDP Pro and it looks like a rabid beaver has been knawing on the frame. This is true you have to use plastic followers like wilson's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 My LWC has on the order of 15K through it, all either factory hardball (I had a s**tload of Geco 230 fmj years ago, it ran 230's at 875 out of a Commander) or the old Major ammo, at 180PF. If you shoot a LW gun loose, you can tighten it with a new barrel to take up the slack, get it Accu-railed, or just shoot it while it is loose. While I wouldn't select a LW as a competition gun, if what you do is compete with your carry gun I wouldn't lose any sleep about wearing out the gun. And I'm sure the alloys Kimber is using are a lot better than what Colt used thirty years ago. If what you want is light weight and extreme durability, then the new S&W 1911 in Scandium promises a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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