accuracy standards/objectives for long gun field position shooting?

[jaredr]

looking to get some feedback from others on what level of precision/accuracy they're striving for in their own long gun (AR/sporting rifle) training. Easy enough to say "as accurate as possible", and as long as you can go prone and take your time (lots of it in some cases) then you can probably get close to the mechanical accuracy of the firearm & ammunition but I'm not sure that sort of practice will help me improve much in any of the multi-gun sports. i'm trying to figure out what level of accuracy (in MOA) I should be setting set as a goal when shooting from field expedient positions (kneeling/stretch kneeling, sitting, rice-paddy squat, etc) on the clock. I'm never going to shoot a 1" group shooting from kneeling using a red-dot sight, so don't see a point in setting that as a goal - would rather set realistic (albeit challenging) objectives and work towards them.

have been practicing field position shooting (kneeling, sitting, VTAC barricade positions) at 50 and 100 yards using an MGM speed plate auto popper, basically a small auto-resetting popper with a 6" diameter circle. At 50 yards, i've got a 12 MOA target which i'm finding very easy to hit consistently as long as I'm paying attention. At 100 yards, it's a bit more challenging with a red-dot (once it's been hit a few times, the plate takes on a mottled gray appearance that blends in with the gravel berm so target id is challenge in and of itself). with a 4x magnified optic, it's not too difficult to get good hits but time certainly suffers as I need to take more time to settle the sights before taking the shot.

anybody want to share the standards or field drills they're training for (i.e. 10 hits on 6 MOA target in 25 seconds or something like that)? Curious to know if others are working with 4 MOA targets and starting slow, or maybe using 8 MOA (or larger) targets and setting a higher standard for speed?

thanks, jared

[Jesse Tischauser]

2 MOA

[jaredr]

2 MOA

you're kidding, right? I can't even see a 2 MOA target at 100 yards with an unmagnified optic. Are you really hitting 2" circles @ 100 yards with a red-dot?

edited for crummy spelling

Edited February 17, 2011 by jaredr

[MarkCO]

I think a lot of it depends on your disposition and prior shooting. I have always been one of the guys that goes too slow because I hate missing. Up unitl last year, my rifle practice had been 8" paper plates at 300 to 500 yards. Then I realized I was shooting 5 yards full sized paper targets the same way. I was not letting my sight picture be my *thumb rest [generic]*. On paper, doubles out to 100 yards, I am fine with 10 MOA with a goal of 0.2 splits and 0.3 transitions on a normal 3 to 4 target array. I also practice from 10 to 50 yards striving for a 2" group. If I happen to run into paper past 100 yards, I'll deal with it, but I don't specifically work on it. Steel, I am basically striving for the 3 MOA range from 200 yards out.

[jaredr]

I am fine with 10 MOA with a goal of 0.2 splits and 0.3 transitions on a normal 3 to 4 target array

ok, thanks. maybe i've been slacking off plinking on a 12 MOA target with .5 to 1.0 splits seriously, .2 second splits is a lot more challenging than what I've been working for tho i'm still shooting an uncompensated 16" rifle w/carbine gas system. good to hear what others are setting as their own goals.

jtischauser - if you're shooting 2 MOA, can I ask what your objective is for cadence or for splits/transitions? not saying it can't be done (and certainly with a magnified optic) but curious to know what your goal is for speed at that level of accuracy.

[steel1212]

2 moa is also a 1" at 50 and 1/2 at 25

[jaredr]

2 moa is also a 1" at 50 and 1/2 at 25

not being a jackass but the challenge (for me) is still pretty much the same. I <might> be able to make out a quarter @ 50 yards if i spraypainted it blaze orange, but I'd still pretty much obscure it with the dot from my eotech). i might be able to see it better through irons, but I'd still be taking a while to get a good sight picture if I wanted to get good first shot hits.

if you're shooting quarters at 50 yards, then i'd say that's very competent marksmanship but i'd also ask how fast are you shooting them?

[Merlin Orr]

One minute of plate at whatever distance.

If it goes clang I am good with it.

[Jesse Tischauser]

2 MOA

you're kidding, right? I can't even see a 2 MOA target at 100 yards with an unmagnified optic. Are you really hitting 2" circles @ 100 yards with a red-dot?

edited for crummy spelling

Sorry I didn't read your lengthy post I just read the subject and posted what gets echoed around here for rifle accuracy requirements. You need a rifle that will shoot at worst 2 MOA. Practice shooting MGM flash targets out to 400. They are 10" circles with 5" heads. So in the center thats 3.33 MOA. That's what you will see at matches. Its the standard. Know where your rifle hits from 0-100 for small targets 3-4" at 25-100 such as clay pigeons.

Things I can remember off the last practice session was being able to start low ready, go prone and get hits on a flash target at 100 yards in under 3 seconds. We could also do that then shoot a flasher at 200 and another at 300 under 7 seconds (may have been 6). That was flat out racing each other for shits and grins. That was with a 4x and 6x optic. With an eotech you could add a second or two.

Edited February 17, 2011 by jtischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

Here is a group my buddy shot this weekend while probe off coupled magazines at 200 yards with a 25 mph winds. This was with my JP CTR-02 with his Eotech with the 1 MOA Dot and 65 MOA circle. This was acquiring his zero so it's not timed fire. The target is 10" diameter.

[Bear1142]

I wouldn't worry so much about a MOA standard, just keep working that speed plate. Push that plate out to 400 if possible and keep working on hitting it. If you can consistently hit that speed popper at 400, then you'll have no problem hitting any long range steel target.

I also wouldn't get too concerned about speed on long range targets. A slow hit is more beneficial that 15 quick misses followed by a hit.

Erik

Edited February 17, 2011 by Bear1142

[Bryan 45]

It's frequent to encounter the long range targets at the end of a stage, after the shooter has already engaged pistol and shotgun targets over the river and through the woods. At the range, try hitting these same targets after doing 20 jumping jacks or push-ups. Set your target up at 200 yards. Engage it from your barricade. Run up to 150, shoot it kneeling, run back to 200, shoot it again.

If you're planning on shooting 3 gun matches only on square ranges this is less important. But, it's important to know your limitations. Your 6" plate at 200 isn't a terribly difficult target, until you're sucking wind. If you don't have the room to run back and forth to get your heart rate up, try just holding your breath for 30 seconds between shots.

Edit to add- I'm not the only one crazy enough to incorporate shooting w/ cardio, right?

Edited February 17, 2011 by Bryan 45

[Jesse Tischauser]

Edit to add- I'm not the only one crazy enough to incorporate shooting w/ cardio, right?

I just run the drill until I'm huffing and puffing then I start taking score. Doing jumping jacks at my range will get you a wedgy at the least and stuff into the never emptied porta potty at worst.

[mpeltier]

I agree with Eric.

I don't get wrapped up in MOA, though I like my rifles to be as accurate as they can be.

My test is more for consistancy. I will take a 100yd target (6") and shoot 10 shots as quickly as I can obtain an almost perfect sight picture, my goal bieng 2" or less. Time this for referance later. Then I will do 30 shots with a 3" goal. Then move to 200yds with a goal of 4" and 6" respectively. This of course is done with a shoot-n-see type target.

Another thing I work on with steel targets is holding a not to perfect sight picture to burn in what I can get away with for a sloppy shot. Its nice to think that we will always be holding perfect at the trigger break, but that is seldom the case. I want to know how far off center I can still make a hit, if I do not know that from practicing it I would never know in a match what I could ge way with. The goal of course is a perfect shot but also to have confidence in a not so perfect a sight picture that is good enough to get the job done.

[MarkCO]

^ Great post Mark!

Since you quoted Eric as well, included therein.

[Jesse Tischauser]

a sight picture that is good enough to get the job done.

This is the key for all of the action shooting sports!!!

[MarkCO]

a sight picture that is good enough to get the job done.

This is the key for all of the action shooting sports!!!

So I can't find my key, can I borrow yours?

[outerlimits]

Buy a nordic .22 upper and a pallet of .22 ammo. Practice unsupported off-hand at 50-100 yds. It'll eventually be a game-changer.

[jaredr]

thanks all for comments, much appreciated.

I wouldn't worry so much about a MOA standard, just keep working that speed plate. Push that plate out to 400 if possible and keep working on hitting it.

ok, thanks. i shoot mostly on 100yd square range. cannot move target back, so just look at making the target smaller to simulate distance. understand shortcoming to that approach is that i can't validate/practice my dope for shooting at distance, but I can break that up into a separate exercise for those limited times I can get access to a 500 yd range.

Things I can remember off the last practice session was being able to start low ready, go prone and get hits on a flash target at 100 yards in under 3 seconds. We could also do that then shoot a flasher at 200 and another at 300 under 7 seconds (may have been 6).

will add this sort of thing to the range practice card.

question about the math you mention for the flash target

Practice shooting MGM flash targets out to 400. They are 10" circles with 5" heads. So in the center thats 3.33 MOA. That's what you will see at matches. Its the standard. Know where your rifle hits from 0-100 for small targets 3-4" at 25-100 such as clay pigeons.

If we're just using the 10" circle, then that would be a 2.5 MOA target @ 400, right? If we count the 5" box on top (the "head" part") then it's a 15" target, which would be 3.75 MOA @ 400 yards, i.e. 15 (size of target in inches) divided by 4 (# of 100 yd lengths of distance). Just want to make sure I am using the right math. Since i only have access (for the most part) to a 100 yd range, that tells me I should be spending some time hitting 3-4" targets at 100 yds on the clock.

agree that it is worth practicing marksmanship + cardio. i started practicing an aggregate drill i got from green eyes & black rifles (10 rounds @ 100 yds prone, 10 from 75 yds sitting, 10 from 50 yds kneeling, 10 from 25 yds standing). easy to do very well, until you started 50 yds back (out on the parking gravel at my range for the 100 yd string) and then ran into position showing up all huffing and puffing made life more difficult. i don't usually do separate cardio, rather just practice a course with a lot of movement and see how your time/score holds up. harder to do in August than February.

Buy a nordic .22 upper and a pallet of .22 ammo. Practice unsupported off-hand at 50-100 yds. It'll eventually be a game-changer.

agreed. i use a cmmg 22 rimfire adapter for practicing shooting while moving and it allowed me to improve tremendously without bankrupting me or burning out a few barrels, but this approach (adapter shooting .22 rimfire through 1/7 twist AR barrel) is really only accurate enough to be used @ 40 yds or less. have been on the fence about a dedicated .22 rinfire upper, problem has been either buying a second optic for the dedicated upper or swapping the optic back and forth between uppers (not really practical as it will burn up a ton of time re-zeroing). Eventually I'll bite the bullet and get the .22 rimfire upper and backup/second optic.

[Jesse Tischauser]

My MOA math was at 300 which is our normal ranges longest shot. I then mentioned 400 yards without clarifying. Oops! Sounds like youre on the right track.

[Supermoto]

Buy a nordic .22 upper and a pallet of .22 ammo. Practice unsupported off-hand at 50-100 yds. It'll eventually be a game-changer.

This is what I have been doing. Got a nordic upper, threw my acog TA11 on it. Got some 2" spinners at 50 yards and have been working on shooting in different positions. The only issue I have found is that the Winchester bulk pack ammo groups almost the same size as the plates, so its hard to tell if its you or the ammo. I have much better luck with CCI AR .22 and will have to use that in the future

[jaredr]

Buy a nordic .22 upper and a pallet of .22 ammo. Practice unsupported off-hand at 50-100 yds. It'll eventually be a game-changer.

This is what I have been doing. Got a nordic upper, threw my acog TA11 on it. Got some 2" spinners at 50 yards and have been working on shooting in different positions. The only issue I have found is that the Winchester bulk pack ammo groups almost the same size as the plates, so its hard to tell if its you or the ammo. I have much better luck with CCI AR .22 and will have to use that in the future

how are you doing hitting a 2" target from 50 yds from any position besides prone? I'll address that question to the board, just curious whether anyone bothers trying to hit a 4 MOA target from sitting/kneeling or does everyone just get prone for shots smaller than a given size.

for me, if it's 6 MOA or smaller, it's not worth shooting from sitting/kneeling, I might as well just get prone and get there in a hurry.

[MarkCO]

how are you doing hitting a 2" target from 50 yds from any position besides prone? I'll address that question to the board, just curious whether anyone bothers trying to hit a 4 MOA target from sitting/kneeling or does everyone just get prone for shots smaller than a given size.

for me, if it's 6 MOA or smaller, it's not worth shooting from sitting/kneeling, I might as well just get prone and get there in a hurry.

A lot of it depends on where a target is in the stage...or how hard you are breathing as a dictator to how I shoot it. I practice 4 MOA out to 200 yards off-hand almost everytime I go to the range. I suck so bad at shotgun, I have to make it up somewhere, and usually, it is on rifle. For me, kneeling and off-hand result in about the same accuracy if there is no rest. Sitting takes as much time as prone so if ground clutter or vision dictates, I will try sitting, and I practice it as well. I shoot a .30-06 once every 2 to 3 months, 50 rounds at 100 or 200 yards: 15 rounds off-hand, 10 sitting, 10 kneeling and 15 prone. Been doing that since I was 21...it is worth it, I keep all those hits inside 3 MOA.

[Supermoto]

how are you doing hitting a 2" target from 50 yds from any position besides prone? I'll address that question to the board, just curious whether anyone bothers trying to hit a 4 MOA target from sitting/kneeling or does everyone just get prone for shots smaller than a given size.

for me, if it's 6 MOA or smaller, it's not worth shooting from sitting/kneeling, I might as well just get prone and get there in a hurry.

Standing unsupported, Terrible. probably a 15-20% hit rate. I never got all 4 plates with my 10 round mag. It was my first time trying at 50 yards. The sights were all over the place. At 25 yard, for a low ready. I was running mid 4 seconds for all 4 plates. I was surprised at how quickly it went down hill.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Supermoto

[jaredr]

For me, kneeling and off-hand result in about the same accuracy if there is no rest. Sitting takes as much time as prone so if ground clutter or vision dictates, I will try sitting, and I practice it as well.

this is more or less shaping up to be the terrible truth for me: if it's big or fairly close than just shoot it standing unsupported (if a low barricade is available, then the extra stability from bracing against the barricade in the kneeling position is worth the time to get into that position).

if the target is not big or close, than (for me) it's probably not worth screwing around with kneeling, sitting, squatting, whatever, and I should just get on with it and get prone ASAP. only caveat is (as you mentioned) if visibility is obscured from prone, than maybe sitting (or if you're competing on a field of medical waste and don't want to lay down but that's an unlikely gaming scenario)

I shoot a .30-06 once every 2 to 3 months, 50 rounds at 100 or 200 yards: 15 rounds off-hand, 10 sitting, 10 kneeling and 15 prone. Been doing that since I was 21...it is worth it, I keep all those hits inside 3 MOA.

sounds like a very useful drill to keep you in shape on field positions. have to say, if the off-hand and kneeling strings are 3MOA, then you're doing wayyy better than me