Skydiver Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 The "Removing Slide Racker" thread got me intrigued. What defines "significantly modifies" a gun under rule 5.1.8? Presuming the features are legal in the specific division the gun is entered in, can I: - change extractors - change guide rods - change recoil, hammer, trigger springs - change firing pins - change slides as long as I move the old sights from the old slide to the new slide (complying with 5.1.7) - add/remove ambi-safeties - change thumb safeties - add/remove slide stop - change guide rods - change hammers - change mag releases - change triggers parts - change sears - add/remove a magwell (imagine the techwell system) - change sizes of magwell (again, imagine something likethe techwell system) - add/remove thumbrests - add/remove grip tape - change grips Or is the rule, if the part/feature is allowed to be changed in the division rules as defined in the appendices, then it can be changed during the match? Or is this like pornography: "I'll know it when I see it." ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 It states "without prior approval of the Range Master", so I guess it's a bit subjective. Though I'd imagine any of those parts would be OK if affecting a repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 You certainlty do come up with some...interesting... questions. - change extractors- change guide rods - change recoil, hammer, trigger springs - change firing pins - add/remove slide stop - change guide rods (**You repeated yourself here while trying to create yet another of your near-patented multi-part questions) - change hammers (**and again....see above) - change mag releases - change triggers parts - change sears I'd have no problem with the above, if required to return a broken gun to an 'in-service' mode. - add/remove ambi-safeties- change thumb safeties - change slides as long as I move the old sights from the old slide to the new slide (complying with 5.1.7) A 'broken' slide, or 'broken' safeties...maybe, if no significant advantage was gained by the replacement parts. If not broken....no. - add/remove a magwell (imagine the techwell system)- change sizes of magwell (again, imagine something likethe techwell system) - add/remove thumbrests - add/remove grip tape - change grips The rest likely wouldn't be allowed as they are not necessary to the basic function of the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 - add/remove a magwell (imagine the techwell system)- change sizes of magwell (again, imagine something likethe techwell system) - add/remove thumbrests - add/remove grip tape - change grips The rest likely wouldn't be allowed as they are not necessary to the basic function of the gun. I will disagree with you here on the grip tape. As long as the location is within the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 You can change whatever you want so long as the end result complies with the requirements of the division and you don't run afoul of 5.1.8 Bear in mind that every change can trigger a trip to chrono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Could I add whatever I want as long as I comply with the Division requirements? Lets say I don't have grip tape on my pistol. My hands get sweaty after a few stages so I put grip tape on it. Or... a stage has a start where I have my hands in a bucket of water ( ). Can I put on grip tape before that stage? Do I need to ask the RM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Could I add whatever I want as long as I comply with the Division requirements? I think you're OK unless it becomes so blatant that someone calls up 5.1.8 Lets say I don't have grip tape on my pistol. My hands get sweaty after a few stages so I put grip tape on it. Or... a stage has a start where I have my hands in a bucket of water ( ). Can I put on grip tape before that stage? Sounds like a lot of work but there's nothing wrong with the idea. Grip tape does the same thing as gloves or Pro-Grip and no one limits when you can use those. Do I need to ask the RM? It never hurts to check with the CRO/RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I was already at the same conclusion, I just wanted your opinion. Thanks Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) You certainlty do come up with some...interesting... questions. - change extractors- change guide rods - change recoil, hammer, trigger springs - change firing pins - add/remove slide stop - change guide rods (**You repeated yourself here while trying to create yet another of your near-patented multi-part questions) - change hammers (**and again....see above) - change mag releases - change triggers parts - change sears I'd have no problem with the above, if required to return a broken gun to an 'in-service' mode. Based on this answer, let me ask this, since I actually thought of this exact question last week: Shooting a major match, 6 stages Sat, 4 stages Sun. Trigger return spring breaks on 5th stage of first day. With RM’s approval, I use my buddy’s gun, for 6th stage; he is shooting same Make, Model, Caliber, and sights; assume for arguments sake I chrono’d my original gun, then chrono’d the back up gun and passed. Could I then go back to the hotel Sat night, fix the spring, and then bring the original gun back into use on Sunday? Again, assuming I would need to pass chrono again and did. Would RM approve, or would I be forced to use the back up gun for the last 4 stages? Is the only way the original can be brought back into use is if the backup gun breaks? If you’re asking why not just use the back up gun for the last 4 stages my answers are (1) I would rather shoot my own (2) trading a gun back and forth is a PITA for the shooters and the RO (3) the backup gun is set up for a lefty, I’m a right, so the mag release is on the opposite side. Edited February 10, 2011 by CZinSC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 CZ, it's going to depend on the RM -- there is no single right answer.... I'd ordinarily frown on a switch-back, but in that particular situation, maybe, if you're sharing your buddy's primary..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 At WSSSC one year, my gun (.40) was turned into a rice burner according to Kodiak Precision. I used rice to clean my rounds, a piece stuck in the hollow point, then got dislodged and the gun would not go into battery. I had just finished the chrono stage when this happen. Brian Williamson, loaned me his SV SS .40. The RM/MD approved the switch and I had to chrono the SV. My gun was repaired and I shot it the next day. Of course Brian had to hunt me down to have me return his SV-a very nice pistol. On Sunday, I informed the MD/RM that I was now shooting my original gun that had been to chrono the previous day. You switch guns, you need MD/RM approval. I believe if you are using another gun, even if that gun had been to chrono, it needs to go to chrono with your ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 CZ, it's going to depend on the RM -- there is no single right answer.... I'd ordinarily frown on a switch-back, but in that particular situation, maybe, if you're sharing your buddy's primary..... Why would you "ordinarily frown on a switch-back"? Seems perfectly OK to me to have a repair done overnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Slight thread drift... What happens if you borrow a gun, go straight to chrono, and make minor. Can you find another gun or are you now shooting minor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Me, too. I think that the rule is in place (about switching guns without permission) to prevent using a gun that more suited to one stage than another, as Flex stated. But, if your gun is broken, and you need to switch, then if it fits the three requirements, I'll let you switch. However, if you come to me later, and say that the original is fixed, and want to switch back, I'm going to have some reservations. Just my suspicious nature, I guess. As for er, wetting down your range bag, uh, Kyle, we need to talk.... About the 3 Gun, I've heard a lot of stories about that match. I wasn't there, so I won't comment, but I hope this year goes a lot smoother. I was really sorry to hear about all the hassles, though. Troy Something Troy said once..... Now, when I say frown, what I mean is it'll trigger additional scrutiny -- is the explanation reasonable? Are the guns identical? What's the issue with finishing the match with the substitute gun? What kinds of stages are coming up? Why should we approve the switch back -- when competitors shouldn't be switching in the first place? The goal is not to punish anyone, it's to preserve match equity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Me, too. I think that the rule is in place (about switching guns without permission) to prevent using a gun that more suited to one stage than another, as Flex stated. But, if your gun is broken, and you need to switch, then if it fits the three requirements, I'll let you switch. However, if you come to me later, and say that the original is fixed, and want to switch back, I'm going to have some reservations. Just my suspicious nature, I guess. As for er, wetting down your range bag, uh, Kyle, we need to talk.... About the 3 Gun, I've heard a lot of stories about that match. I wasn't there, so I won't comment, but I hope this year goes a lot smoother. I was really sorry to hear about all the hassles, though. Troy Something Troy said once..... Now, when I say frown, what I mean is it'll trigger additional scrutiny -- is the explanation reasonable? Are the guns identical? What's the issue with finishing the match with the substitute gun? What kinds of stages are coming up? Why should we approve the switch back -- when competitors shouldn't be switching in the first place? The goal is not to punish anyone, it's to preserve match equity... Say my primary is a G34 with sights, guide rod, spring, grip tape, springs, etc. 100% within rules but about as far as you can go. The gun breaks (trigger spring and for some reason I don't have any with me) and my only backup is a factory G19. Wouldn't it be feasible for me to finish out the first day with my factory G19 then replace the trigger spring that night and come back wanting to shoot my primary gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 No problem there. The only time the RM is going to be concerned is if you are deliberately switching guns to gain an advantage on a particular stage or group of stages. Say my primary is a G34 with sights, guide rod, spring, grip tape, springs, etc. 100% within rules but about as far as you can go. The gun breaks (trigger spring and for some reason I don't have any with me) and my only backup is a factory G19. Wouldn't it be feasible for me to finish out the first day with my factory G19 then replace the trigger spring that night and come back wanting to shoot my primary gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Me, too. I think that the rule is in place (about switching guns without permission) to prevent using a gun that more suited to one stage than another, as Flex stated. But, if your gun is broken, and you need to switch, then if it fits the three requirements, I'll let you switch. However, if you come to me later, and say that the original is fixed, and want to switch back, I'm going to have some reservations. Just my suspicious nature, I guess. As for er, wetting down your range bag, uh, Kyle, we need to talk.... About the 3 Gun, I've heard a lot of stories about that match. I wasn't there, so I won't comment, but I hope this year goes a lot smoother. I was really sorry to hear about all the hassles, though. Troy Something Troy said once..... Now, when I say frown, what I mean is it'll trigger additional scrutiny -- is the explanation reasonable? Are the guns identical? What's the issue with finishing the match with the substitute gun? What kinds of stages are coming up? Why should we approve the switch back -- when competitors shouldn't be switching in the first place? The goal is not to punish anyone, it's to preserve match equity... Say my primary is a G34 with sights, guide rod, spring, grip tape, springs, etc. 100% within rules but about as far as you can go. The gun breaks (trigger spring and for some reason I don't have any with me) and my only backup is a factory G19. Wouldn't it be feasible for me to finish out the first day with my factory G19 then replace the trigger spring that night and come back wanting to shoot my primary gun? You have a replacement trigger spring in the G-19, right? Odds are someone would offer you a part -- for a blaster that common.... Like I said, we'd talk. I'm not totally against the idea -- but I'd want to evaluate the totality of the actual circumstances, rather than hypothetical examples which may or may not mirror the actual situation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunt_fish Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Sorry to ressurect an old thread, but I am after advice on this rule. I have a flip out lever on my scope mount, like the 3-in-1 Double Alpha mount for table starts(I don't have enough posts to post links). I was recently informed (by a jealous non-open shooter!) that under this rule it would not be allowed! Am I allowed to use this? Cheers, Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Sorry to ressurect an old thread, but I am after advice on this rule. I have a flip out lever on my scope mount, like the 3-in-1 Double Alpha mount for table starts(I don't have enough posts to post links). I was recently informed (by a jealous non-open shooter!) that under this rule it would not be allowed! Am I allowed to use this? Cheers, Ryan Allowed in Open division. We don't see them much anymore. I use my slide racker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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