Army_shhooter Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Fellow shooters, I am looking for information to help guide the development and testing in the Special Operations Community. As many of you know we have derived a lot of our techniques from the IPSC and IDPA realms of shooting sports. To include new technology. I have taken it upon myself to help change the minds of the nay sayers and the old timers who feel that "red dot" sights do not belong on pistols. This same mentality existed in regards to our service rifles for a long time, that is until A special unit that we now refer to as "The Son Tay Raiders" decided it was smart to affix red dot sights to their carbines. Now you can not throw a stone ten feet without finding some sort of red dot optic on a young grunts rifle. IPSC and IDPA shooters have been affixing red dot sights to their pistols for years, for two very important reasons: speed and accuracy. Can any of you point me in the direction of developement history and use of red dot sights, major sight manufacturers, any data and figures that I can sort through for Information, as well as any personal statements that you do not mind plagarized. Many Thanks -a fellow shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfpmb Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Just rerad the forums, use search and participate. Its all here, especially such a broad question. And why don't you just call the companies that make the sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njl Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 The trouble with most red dot sights on pistols is the need for special (expensive) holsters to accommodate the pistol with the mount and sight. The one exception to this is the very small red dots modeled after the Tasco Optima / Docter (I'm not sure which was first). These generally sit on the top/rear of the slide using an insert that anchors the sight to the slide's rear sight dovetail. These typically don't interfere with most holsters. Another problem with dots on a combat pistol is there's generally no room and no provision for a BUIS, so if the dot fails or is damaged, battery dies, etc., then you have a pistol with no sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 a real combat shooter would rather have an extra canteen than a pistol, and no IDPA shooter has ever mounted a red dot or any other optic sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro-Pain Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Army_shhooter: Sounds like a noble cause. On these forums, look for information on "open" guns. This Division is the only one in USPSA that uses red dot sights (and muzzle brakes) as (mostly) standard equipment. C-more is one division of optics. Also, more towards the military side, you have EOTech, and even ACOG. ANother interesting angle would be to look at improvements on existing technologies, such as illuminated reticles on rifles (or "star" scopes), or even the use of lasers for accuracy, not just the common red laser, but there are green and even blue (ultraviolet) lasers available. Good luck on your endeavor. If you do get information together, send me a link, i'd be interested in reading it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I would think the action pistol shooters in the AMU would also be a good resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) The one exception to this is the very small red dots modeled after the Tasco Optima / Docter (I'm not sure which was first). These generally sit on the top/rear of the slide using an insert that anchors the sight to the slide's rear sight dovetail. These typically don't interfere with most holsters. Another problem with dots on a combat pistol is there's generally no room and no provision for a BUIS, so if the dot fails or is damaged, battery dies, etc., then you have a pistol with no sights. Not really trun. If you leave the front sight on most have a notch on the rear of the optic you can use like a iron sight. Most batteries will last over a year without changing anyway. If the "Slide ride" red dot mount is milled into the slide you will even to sight down the top of the slide as it is still visible. If you are that concerned then install a new battery before an operation. The new c-more STS has a slide out battery holder so no need to even rezero since you do not even remove the sight. Army-shooter try the following sites. www.cmore.com/sts.html www.burrisoptics.com/fastfire.html www.docterusa.com/_mgxroot/page_10767.html www.leupold.com/tactical/products/scopes/deltapoint-reflex-sights/deltapoint-reflex-sight/ www.golckworx.com MDA Edited February 6, 2011 by mda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro-Pain Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 ^^ www.glockworx.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calishootr Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 back in the late 80's was the first time i saw a red dot affixedto a handgun( it was a aimpoint 1000 on an aluminum mount/grip panel combo on a .45) crude, but it worked, by 1990 we were tryin to mount(and keep working) the tasco PDP2's on our comp'd single stack .38 supers, the dots backthen were fragile and expensive(typical was 1 on the gun, 1 in the bag as a spare, 1 going back to tasco to be fixed and 1 coming back from them fixed, all at roughly 250 bucks per...) aimpoints got smaller and better and the tubless(c-more) hit the scene, the micr/slide riders came next, the optima from tasco was first??? nice but change a battery, gotta go re-sightthe thing back in, c-more's sts sort of solved that by having a slide out battery tray like was said before me, nice idea on a handgun forthe military, but how to carry??(holsters??) whatto do if and when the batts crap out(and they will be the lousy time to do it) and they are still fairly delicate, i doubtthey can handle bein tossed in the back of a duece and a half more than once... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Also check out www.rapidreticle.com. They have a full line of quality optics for rifle and pistol including a Special Ops Compact just like you are looking for. It is similar to the Docter/Burris Fastfire style. It has a hinged door on top to change batteries wile still mounted on the gun. They also have a new base for that scope for rifle and shotgun that has 10 settable elevations so you can be spot on at any 10 distances of your choosing. It fits on any Picatinny Rail. It goes on or off in seconds, but is very secure and has wings to protect the scope from any damage. The company is Pride Fowler Industries. You can reach John Pride at 909-599-0928. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I think you'll gain more useful information as far as your application from WarriorTalk's subforum dedicated to red dots on self-defense guns: http://www.warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?205-Red-Dot-Sighted-Pistols Here's my review of using an RMR equipped Glock at the Ironman 3 Gun last year: http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?70449-RMR-Glock-at-Ironman-3-Gun-AAR BUIS are now available in line with the dot. As you can see from my post, Safariland style duty holsters can be modified for the purpose and still retain the gun just as well. Red Dot set ups in this particular configuration may have value to SWAT Teams or other direct action teams that do not spend a lot of time directly exposed to the elements. They may have value to the CCW guy as well. One of the drawbacks I encountered in having the red dot on my Glock at Ironman is that sand and dust accumulated in the lens while sitting in my holster. It never got to the point where it would have been unusable, but it certainly reduced effectiveness. I made it a point of cleaning out the lens before every stage. If someone were using it operationally, while constantly exposed to the elements, they probably wouldn't have that luxury when it was time to use it. The problem could be reduced with better holster design; a hood for the sight that swings out of the way when the gun is drawn. The debris accumulation problem is not as bad with red dots on rifles given that they generally aren't carried in a manner that the lens is straight up to accumulate dust as quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 a real combat shooter would rather have an extra canteen than a pistol... This is the first thing that crossed my mind. I wondered how often soldiers resort to sidearms? seems like primary would have to go down and no pick up available? Or run dry? If it's ammo shortage, seems like sending more ammo is a better answer? Anyways, I'd be cautious about chasing this two hard. Seems like spending a lot of energy/money upgrading the weakest firearm on the field would still leave you undergunned when it's all over. I am curious if you know the frequency of sidearm usage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) a real combat shooter would rather have an extra canteen than a pistol... This is the first thing that crossed my mind. I wondered how often soldiers resort to sidearms? seems like primary would have to go down and no pick up available? Or run dry? If it's ammo shortage, seems like sending more ammo is a better answer? Anyways, I'd be cautious about chasing this two hard. Seems like spending a lot of energy/money upgrading the weakest firearm on the field would still leave you undergunned when it's all over. I am curious if you know the frequency of sidearm usage? Uh...the critical bit of information was in his first sentence. I am looking for information to help guide the development and testing in the Special Operations Community. He's not talking about arming non-combat arms troops with red dot sighted pistols, or even normal infantry units. He's talking about the guys most likely to be engaging in direct action missions where having a sidearm is certainly of benefit. Much of the modern battlefield is in urban areas where having a pistol is of benefit to anyone that can actually get one. That "extra canteen" is probably of benefit to someone patrolling the mountains of Afghanistan; a pistol is probably more beneficial to someone operating in the city and clearing buildings. Edited February 9, 2011 by SinistralRifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I'm gong to post a cautionary note here that we don't want to get into too much defensive or combat talk on this site. The OP was asking for a history of red dot sights in the handgun shooting sports, let keep it to that and avoid the usual back and forth about what is "tactical" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army_shhooter Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 Gents, For all those who have posted, Its greatly appreciated. Im still early on in my research and getting smart on red dots. Keep an eye out for me as my knowledge base increases Im bound to have some questions to bounce off you folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 The first red dots were huge. 1990's. Anyway, the dots(scope frame) are smaller now. Those first dots were frame mounted-too big for your use. What you want is a slide mounted red dot. Trijicon makes one. The JPoint sight is probably the best one for what you are looking for. It can go on any pistol and be used in any holster. Kelly McCann has one on his Glock 19 . Bear in mind that most IPSC shooting is done two handed and most shooters in this forum come from that perspective. Give John Paul of JP RIfles a call and he will have the most,best information of anybody I know and I know they are heavy into R+D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army_shhooter Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 The first red dots were huge. 1990's. Anyway, the dots(scope frame) are smaller now. Those first dots were frame mounted-too big for your use. What you want is a slide mounted red dot. Trijicon makes one. The JPoint sight is probably the best one for what you are looking for. It can go on any pistol and be used in any holster. Kelly McCann has one on his Glock 19 . Bear in mind that most IPSC shooting is done two handed and most shooters in this forum come from that perspective. Give John Paul of JP RIfles a call and he will have the most,best information of anybody I know and I know they are heavy into R+D. you are quite right. And huge isn't what we are looking for . Off hand does anyone offer a rear sight incorporated to the red dot? obviously the best method would be machine out just in front of the factory rear sight and mount the dot in the machined out area and thus still be able to retain co-witness capability. However "modification" of the physical dimensions of military weapons is a no-go. Im faced with using a dovetail mount to affix the sight to, and you guessed it in so doing you lose your factory sights and now are soley reliant on the dot, NO-GO.... <I need to start making phone calls> -Shhooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army_shhooter Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'm gong to post a cautionary note here that we don't want to get into too much defensive or combat talk on this site. The OP was asking for a history of red dot sights in the handgun shooting sports, let keep it to that and avoid the usual back and forth about what is "tactical" -Thanks Pat Shhooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calishootr Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 the first gen. tasco optima's had a 'notch' slot in the back ofthe sight that i am assuming was to use with the front sight(assuming you didnt pull offthe front sight) in case the batteries went dead, it was pretty wide and crude, but better than nothing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Gene Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 They would be better off "rethinking" the entire weapon. Mag parallel to the integral silenced barrel on a lowered axis for reduced recoil, optic sight on the top, milled in conventional sight mounted on an angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walsh Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) a pistol is probably more beneficial to someone operating in the city and clearing buildings. I'm only going to repeat here what I heard a few combat Marines state a few years ago over in AR15COM when they were back from deployments. "Give me a high powered flashlight and a .45 over a rifle and let me just go to work if I have to clear a house". My understanding is that most teams that go in have had one man with armed with .308. I can see the use of a handgun along with a suppressor and sights for a special forces assignment. Edited February 21, 2011 by walsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyburg Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) Something you also need to take into consideration is the environment. Its nothing to be water resistant, but depending on the unit operating the weapons you have to look at their mission. Combat diver, halo and waterborne operations could kill the electric dot. You mentioned your in the army, their are units that have deployed various weapon systems. Another place to contact is DARPA. They get to play with the cool toys. I would take my old MEUSOC 45 any day. Laser attachments are also another option, I know the hk socom was set up like that. Edited March 4, 2011 by cyburg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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