Importation of Shotguns Ruling Issued

[KentG]

I was wondering if most of the Saiga fans are aware of what I find as the most informative site for all things saiga.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=idx

Im going to guess so but who knows.

[Jeff Matzka]

Sorry if this belongs elsewhere, but it applies to Saiga-12s particularly:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf

Highlights

In particular, the working group examined participation in and popularity of practical shooting

events as governed by formal rules, such as those of the United States Practical Shooting

Association (USPSA) and International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC), to determine

whether it was appropriate to consider these events a “sporting purpose” under § 925(d)(3).

While the number of members reported for USPSA is similar to the membership for other

shotgun shooting organizations,6 the working group ultimately determined that it was not

appropriate to use this shotgun study to determine whether practical shooting is “sporting” under

§ 925(d)(3). A change in ATF’s position on practical shooting has potential implications for rifle

and handgun classifications as well. Therefore, the working group believes that a more thorough

and complete assessment is necessary before ATF can consider practical shooting as a generally

recognized sporting purpose.

The working group also considered “practical shooting” competitions. Practical shooting events

generally measure a shooter’s accuracy and speed in identifying and hitting targets while

negotiating obstacle-laden shooting courses. In these competitions, the targets are generally

stationary and the shooter is mobile, as opposed to clay target shooting where the targets are

moving at high speeds mimicking birds in flight. Practical shooting consist of rifle, shotgun and

handgun competitions, as well as “3-Gun” competitions utilizing all three types of firearm on

one course. The events are often organized by local or national shooting organizations and

attempt to categorize shooters by skill level in order to ensure competitiveness within the

respective divisions. The working group examined participation in and popularity of practical

shooting events as governed under formal rules such as those of the United States Practical

Shooting Association (USPSA) and International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC) to see

31 Gilbert

if it is appropriate to consider these events a legitimate “sporting purpose” under section

925(d)(3).

The USPSA currently reports approximately 19,000 members that participate in shooting events

throughout the United States.32 While USPSA’s reported membership is within the range of

members for some other shotgun shooting organizations,33 organizations involved in shotgun

hunting of particular game such as ducks, pheasants and quail indicate significantly more

members than any of the target shooting organizations.34 Because a determination on the

sporting purpose of practical shooting events should be made only after an in-depth study of

those events, the working group determined that it was not appropriate to use this shotgun study

to make a definitive conclusion as to whether practical shooting events are “sporting” for

purposes of section 925(d)(3). Any such study must include rifles, shotguns and handguns

because practical shooting events use all of these firearms, and a change in position by ATF on

practical shooting or “police/combat-type” competitions may have an impact on the sporting

suitability of rifles and handguns. Further, while it is clear that shotguns are used at certain

practical shooting events, it is unclear whether shotgun use is so prevalent that it is “generally

recognized” as a sporting purpose. If shotgun use is not sufficiently popular at such events,

practical shooting would have no effect on any sporting suitability determination of shotguns.

Therefore, it would be impractical to make a determination based upon one component or aspect

of the practical shooting competitions.

In regard to sporting purposes, the working group found no appreciable difference between

integral tube magazines and removable box magazines. Each type allowed for rapid loading,

reloading, and firing of ammunition. For example, “speed loaders” are available for shotguns

with tube-type magazines. These speed loaders are designed to be preloaded with shotgun shells

and can reload a shotgun with a tube-type magazine in less time than it takes to change a

detachable magazine.

Nevermind the fact that the phrase "sporting purpose" appears nowhere in our nation's constitution. After all, why should our government, the Attorney General, and the BATFE (or whatever their current acronym may be) pay any mind at all to the supreme governing document of our land?

Just sayin'.

[Bryan 45]

It would be interesting how they would choose to ignore 3 gun as sporting if the NRA and it's 3,000,000 members continue sanctioning it.

[Graham Smith]

I know that pistols, at the least, have to meet certain criteria to make it a sporting gun so it can be imported. For example, a Glock 19 has a different trigger than a Glock 34 to make it more suitable for "sporting purposes". Same with rifles and same with shotguns I assume.

The "image" problem with the Saiga is that the main recognized sporting uses for shotguns are hunting and clay shooting, neither of which really lend themselves to removable mags and the like. This makes the Saiga look very unsporting indeed.

The reluctance to include USPSA as a sporting use seems to indicate that the panel recognizes that doing that at this time for shotgun would be imprudent. Clearly, the growth of the sport and the fact that it includes a whole different variety, classes and uses of guns than they are used to including as sporting means some attention to the action shooting sports as a whole is called for.

IOW, they are not willing to open that door at this time.

[bmcnulty]

I am confused here. I was told by some folks at 3-gun matches, who claimed to be Benelli experts, that if one had a Benelli M4 and put an extended tube on it(by replacing the blocked one that they come with), it became a Destructive Device and was illegal. When I read the "study", it looks to me like the same thing would happen with any imported shotgun if you made it capable of accepting more than 5 rounds. Of course it's a study and not a ruling, but couldn't it go that way too, worst case scenerio?

[Charles Bond]

I know that pistols, at the least, have to meet certain criteria to make it a sporting gun so it can be imported. For example, a Glock 19 has a different trigger than a Glock 34 to make it more suitable for "sporting purposes". Same with rifles and same with shotguns I assume.

The "image" problem with the Saiga is that the main recognized sporting uses for shotguns are hunting and clay shooting, neither of which really lend themselves to removable mags and the like. This makes the Saiga look very unsporting indeed.

The reluctance to include USPSA as a sporting use seems to indicate that the panel recognizes that doing that at this time for shotgun would be imprudent. Clearly, the growth of the sport and the fact that it includes a whole different variety, classes and uses of guns than they are used to including as sporting means some attention to the action shooting sports as a whole is called for.

IOW, they are not willing to open that door at this time.

Exactly. So what the report becomes is a means to an end because the panel ignored what is really going on because they do not desire to "open the door at this time". If things have changed, that mandates a revision of current policy. All I see them saying is that things have changed but we are not going to do anything to so state.

Apparently the panel has trouble not with "sporting use" but rather "sport". They cite that hunting is a "sport" based only on tradition but what constitues a "sport" is not so based. "Sport" is competitve. Under the same analysis they could say that baseball is a sport because it has been so viewed traditionally and football is not since its history is much shorter. But when you look to whether or not it is a competive game, sport and action shooting become "sport" and hunting falls away from the definition used by ATF.

[Rob72]

I am confused here. I was told by some folks at 3-gun matches, who claimed to be Benelli experts, that if one had a Benelli M4 and put an extended tube on it(by replacing the blocked one that they come with), it became a Destructive Device and was illegal. When I read the "study", it looks to me like the same thing would happen with any imported shotgun if you made it capable of accepting more than 5 rounds. Of course it's a study and not a ruling, but couldn't it go that way too, worst case scenerio?

No, it does not become a DD. The issue was originally the fact that there was no way to make the M4 922R compliant, as there were no US-made mag-tubes, stocks, forends, etc.. You may (now) add a US-made mag extension, follower and forearm, then buy the factory collapsing stock, and still be legal. 'Course you can just buy the US-made extension tube and be legal, if that is your only desire...

[VegasSean]

I am confused here. I was told by some folks at 3-gun matches, who claimed to be Benelli experts, that if one had a Benelli M4 and put an extended tube on it(by replacing the blocked one that they come with), it became a Destructive Device and was illegal. When I read the "study", it looks to me like the same thing would happen with any imported shotgun if you made it capable of accepting more than 5 rounds. Of course it's a study and not a ruling, but couldn't it go that way too, worst case scenerio?

This only relates to configuration at time of importation. As of now, there are no restrictions on making changes that will "trigger" any of the 10 points in the document.

[JFlowers]

Guys,

Based on my understanding, this is not a change in the law. This is only a position paper published by a Study Group with no legal weight. It is just written to justify any changes the Attorney General and the ATF want and was most likely written backwards (conclusion was decided before the research). However, it does shine light on some changes in attitudes regarding the Shooting Sports and I think we need to put pressure on that during the public comment period. The Study Group says that USPSA/IPSC has around 19000 members, well we need to send them 19000 responses! Enlighten them that there are more than 19000 members of the shooting sport community. They neglected NRA and IDPA on the pistol side, and NRA, IDPA, and IMGA(?) on the 3Gun side as well as a host of unaffiliated groups. Talk about TV coverage of major events (Shooting Gallery, Shooting USA, 3Gun Nation, etc), growth, etc. People with the knowledge need to publish information here was can incorporate - Safety records, movement on innovation from competition to the real world.

[SMSI]

I don't intend to discourage anyone from participating in our governmental decision making process. However, our current Attorney General is less likely to expand his interpretation of "sporting purposes" to include our sport than he is to whistle Dixie during his next meeting with the President.

[mpeltier]

I don't intend to discourage anyone from participating in our governmental decision making process. However, our current Attorney General is less likely to expand his interpretation of "sporting purposes" to include our sport than he is to whistle Dixie during his next meeting with the President.

"The only thing neccessary for the triumph of evil-Is for good men to do nothing"

Everyone who has knowledge of this study should read it. And pass it on to other shooting buddies. Then compose a lucid, fact based positive response and mail it to them (do not bother with an e-mail). If they get several thousand letters to open and dispose of, it may not change their mind this time, but they will take notice. But do not do nothing.....you then have no one to blame but yourself.

[Chuck Anderson]

I don't intend to discourage anyone from participating in our governmental decision making process. However, our current Attorney General is less likely to expand his interpretation of "sporting purposes" to include our sport than he is to whistle Dixie during his next meeting with the President.

"The only thing neccessary for the triumph of evil-Is for good men to do nothing"

Everyone who has knowledge of this study should read it. And pass it on to other shooting buddies. Then compose a lucid, fact based positive response and mail it to them (do not bother with an e-mail). If they get several thousand letters to open and dispose of, it may not change their mind this time, but they will take notice. But do not do nothing.....you then have no one to blame but yourself.

I might have missed it in my reading. Was there an address and someone to send comments to? Can we post that here to make it a bit easier on the slackers like me?

[mpeltier]

I don't intend to discourage anyone from participating in our governmental decision making process. However, our current Attorney General is less likely to expand his interpretation of "sporting purposes" to include our sport than he is to whistle Dixie during his next meeting with the President.

"The only thing neccessary for the triumph of evil-Is for good men to do nothing"

Everyone who has knowledge of this study should read it. And pass it on to other shooting buddies. Then compose a lucid, fact based positive response and mail it to them (do not bother with an e-mail). If they get several thousand letters to open and dispose of, it may not change their mind this time, but they will take notice. But do not do nothing.....you then have no one to blame but yourself.

I might have missed it in my reading. Was there an address and someone to send comments to? Can we post that here to make it a bit easier on the slackers like me?

On the cover letter to the study it said to e-mail or fax (202)648-9601.

I am also going to send a letter as a follow up to the fax.

99 New York Ave. NE

Washington, DC. 20226

[ArmdCtzn]

What needs to happen is the entire "sporting purposes" ruling BS needs to go away.

The Second Amendment has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with "sporting".

The Supreme Court has recently ruled that the Constitution protects an individual's right to

keep and bear arms for self-defense. It is time for it to rule that that right has nothing to do with

hunting or sports, and everything to do with protection of life and liberty.

[John Tuley]

What needs to happen is the entire "sporting purposes" ruling BS needs to go away.

The Second Amendment has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with "sporting".

The Supreme Court has recently ruled that the Constitution protects an individual's right to

keep and bear arms for self-defense. It is time for it to rule that that right has nothing to do with

hunting or sports, and everything to do with protection of life and liberty.

I think the counter-argument (playing devil's advocate here) is that they're not preventing you from acquiring a non-sporting shotgun . . . so long as it was domestically manufactured. This study does not suggest anything to prevent you from hanging all the long tubes, side rails, night sights, and fore pistol grips on a Remington 11-87. So it doesn't trample on 2A rights, since you don't have a right to imported arms.

Now, that being said, I think the whole thing stinks. If those fancy shotguns are made illegal, Open shooters will start playing in the divisions I want to use, and I will get my butt kicked.

No, seriously, this whole thing is ridiculous. The only good news right now is that this "study" is just that; it is not law or policy. It is something that may be pointed to in a court ruling to create some precedence, so not . . . but until that time, I'm concerned since I have a Benelli M2 with a Nordic tube (and rail on the clamp); it's now unclear to me if this is a violation of 922r since the current configuration is not "sporting."

-- John

[Nik Habicht]

And now we've squarely crossed over into political conversation. From the forum rules:

Restricted Content

Politics

Policy and political discussions or debates of any kind - even if you consider your opinions to be "facts" - are not welcome anywhere in the forum.

Specifically including (but not limited to):

• USPSA vs IPSC

• IPSC vs IDPA

• STI vs SVI

• Limited 10 vs Limited Division

• This Division vs That Division

• This Government vs That Government

• Gun Control Issues

Hence, closed.