Importation of Shotguns Ruling Issued

[SinistralRifleman]

Sorry if this belongs elsewhere, but it applies to Saiga-12s particularly:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf

Highlights

In particular, the working group examined participation in and popularity of practical shooting

events as governed by formal rules, such as those of the United States Practical Shooting

Association (USPSA) and International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC), to determine

whether it was appropriate to consider these events a “sporting purpose” under § 925(d)(3).

While the number of members reported for USPSA is similar to the membership for other

shotgun shooting organizations,6 the working group ultimately determined that it was not

appropriate to use this shotgun study to determine whether practical shooting is “sporting” under

§ 925(d)(3). A change in ATF’s position on practical shooting has potential implications for rifle

and handgun classifications as well. Therefore, the working group believes that a more thorough

and complete assessment is necessary before ATF can consider practical shooting as a generally

recognized sporting purpose.

The working group also considered “practical shooting” competitions. Practical shooting events

generally measure a shooter’s accuracy and speed in identifying and hitting targets while

negotiating obstacle-laden shooting courses. In these competitions, the targets are generally

stationary and the shooter is mobile, as opposed to clay target shooting where the targets are

moving at high speeds mimicking birds in flight. Practical shooting consist of rifle, shotgun and

handgun competitions, as well as “3-Gun” competitions utilizing all three types of firearm on

one course. The events are often organized by local or national shooting organizations and

attempt to categorize shooters by skill level in order to ensure competitiveness within the

respective divisions. The working group examined participation in and popularity of practical

shooting events as governed under formal rules such as those of the United States Practical

Shooting Association (USPSA) and International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC) to see

31 Gilbert

if it is appropriate to consider these events a legitimate “sporting purpose” under section

925(d)(3).

The USPSA currently reports approximately 19,000 members that participate in shooting events

throughout the United States.32 While USPSA’s reported membership is within the range of

members for some other shotgun shooting organizations,33 organizations involved in shotgun

hunting of particular game such as ducks, pheasants and quail indicate significantly more

members than any of the target shooting organizations.34 Because a determination on the

sporting purpose of practical shooting events should be made only after an in-depth study of

those events, the working group determined that it was not appropriate to use this shotgun study

to make a definitive conclusion as to whether practical shooting events are “sporting” for

purposes of section 925(d)(3). Any such study must include rifles, shotguns and handguns

because practical shooting events use all of these firearms, and a change in position by ATF on

practical shooting or “police/combat-type” competitions may have an impact on the sporting

suitability of rifles and handguns. Further, while it is clear that shotguns are used at certain

practical shooting events, it is unclear whether shotgun use is so prevalent that it is “generally

recognized” as a sporting purpose. If shotgun use is not sufficiently popular at such events,

practical shooting would have no effect on any sporting suitability determination of shotguns.

Therefore, it would be impractical to make a determination based upon one component or aspect

of the practical shooting competitions.

In regard to sporting purposes, the working group found no appreciable difference between

integral tube magazines and removable box magazines. Each type allowed for rapid loading,

reloading, and firing of ammunition. For example, “speed loaders” are available for shotguns

with tube-type magazines. These speed loaders are designed to be preloaded with shotgun shells

and can reload a shotgun with a tube-type magazine in less time than it takes to change a

detachable magazine.

[VegasSean]

But which of the 10 "points" does the Saiga violate? I find it hard to believe that the ATF can ban a firearm because of aftermarket parts availability.

[Chills1994]

isn't having a box magazine advantageous in a stage where you are shooting slugs, birdshot, and buck?

[Chills1994]

I don't do well with subtlety and/or legal-ese verbage...

are they banning the importation of Saiga's....or not?

[JFlowers]

The "letter" is just a statement of position, it does not actually stop the importation of anything. But it gives E Holder the information to stop the importation of Saiga's based on a "lack of sporting purpose". A ruling that Saiga's are reclassified as DDs is actually better for us because then every Saiga owner becomes a plaintiff with standing. A simple importation ruling would be difficult to fight as the court would not find an importer to having standing, i.e. no damages, just because one product has been banned from importation.

The other option would always be to build one in America if they stop the import.

Edited January 28, 2011 by JFlowers

[SinistralRifleman]

My take is they are saying the things currently imported are OK, but establishing limits on what can be imported so manufacturers and importers don't have to guess each time.

It also made me feel much more optimistic about USPSA/3 Gun being a sporting purpose some day. The more people doing it the better; the more media coverage the better. It was certainly more open to the idea than the previous rulings I read from 1989.

Edited January 28, 2011 by SinistralRifleman

[VegasSean]

The "letter" is just a statement of position, it does not actually stop the importation of anything. But it gives E Holder the information to stop the importation of Saiga's based on a "lack of sporting purpose". A ruling that Saiga's are reclassified as DDs is actually better for us because then every Saiga owner becomes a plaintiff with standing. A simple importation ruling would be difficult to fight as the court would not find an importer to having standing, i.e. no damages, just because one product has been banned from importation.

The other option would always be to build one in America if they stop the import.

Again I ask, what part of that letter said that Saiga's don't meet the definition of "sporting purpose"? There are 10 points, and if any one of them is met then it's considered "unsuitable for sporting purposes". I went through the list and I don't see one.

[Chills1994]

I should just back out of this thread. I read Michael Bane's blog the other day and I just about had smoke coming out of my ears trying to follow all the if...then...statements regarding SBS and the like.

(shrugs shoulders)

[SinistralRifleman]

The scary thing is I've read enough BATF regs and the USC and paid an attorney enough money that I actually understand what they're saying and it doesn't seem like it just came out of nowhere anymore. I won't necessarily agree, but I'll see how they got it out the statute.

[mike cyrwus]

Would our sports have more legitimacy, legal-wise, if we were shooting at only the IPSC classic targets?

Food for thought.

[outerlimits]

Get ready for open-non saiga, open saiga, tac ops, etc...

Edited January 28, 2011 by outerlimits

[Chills1994]

So if I am reading it correctly it's because USPSA isn't as big as say the American Trapshooting Assocition (or is it Amateur Trapshooting Association?) or Ducks Unlimited?

[Charles Bond]

My take is they are saying the things currently imported are OK, but establishing limits on what can be imported so manufacturers and importers don't have to guess each time.

It also made me feel much more optimistic about USPSA/3 Gun being a sporting purpose some day. The more people doing it the better; the more media coverage the better. It was certainly more open to the idea than the previous rulings I read from 1989.

My take was they went to great effort to ignore the sporting purpose of 3 gun matches since they noted that these matches generated participation about the same as trap and skeet. And it also appears that they are also going to revisit what is a sporting purpose for rifles.

One of the most interesting points I saw made is that if your shotgun has a top rail it is sporting. But it has a rail anywhere else, it is not. Who can argue with such logic?

[Chills1994]

maybe we need something like a discount from an FFL/importer for Saiga's to USPSA members???

[SinistralRifleman]

My take was they went to great effort to ignore the sporting purpose of 3 gun matches since they noted that these matches generated participation about the same as trap and skeet. And it also appears that they are also going to revisit what is a sporting purpose for rifles.

I think its clear that 3 gun is the elephant in the room, they're going to have to deal with eventually. But when they do it will effect the sporting purpose importation restrictions for all 3 guns; and they admit in this document that this wasn't the venue for such a ruling. I can understand why they don't want to deal with it here when it would have such far reaching implications. The document also states that sporting purposes can evolve over time.

If you read the document from 1989, it was much more hostile to the idea of "police combat games" being a sporting purpose. I see this as a possible step forward.

[windscreen]

Agreed, that it seems like a step in the right direction. If 3 gun keeps growing, then it's legitimacy in the ATF's eyes grows. I'd dare say the working group that wrote this paper even thinks USPSA, at this moment, represents a legitimate sporting purpose. They just were afraid of the ramifications on current rifle and handgun import rules of stating such, and so deferred it to a future committee.

At least now, right or wrong, importers have a solid definition of "sporting purpose" for shotguns, and don't have to play too many guessing games with how the ATF will rule on a new gun. The way I read it, they still have broad power to deny a gun that doesn't meet the denial requirement(s), but are probably unlikely to exercise that option.

-Steve

[Charles Bond]

We could believe that hte group was given a conclusion and told to write a report to justify it. While they quote Senator Dodd in 1989, they ignore the case law as to what weapons are protected by the second amendment.

Look at the shotgun photos and you see one of a modified Saiga with an aftermarket pistol grip. There are plenty of aftermarket pistol grips for the other auto loaders listed. The pistol grip is very popular with those who hunt turkeys and duck hunters who must stand in flooded timber. The Saiga is represented only in black and while the other auto loaders pictured are also offered in that color they appear in camo.

But the true reason to heckle the study is the position they take on where on the shotgun rails are allowed. No one that I am aware even produces a shotgun with a rail anywhere other than on the top. But the pictures again show aftermarket lights and rails. And while it is not considered a mainstream as duck hunting, those of us who shoot predators need the light on the weapon and unless we want to have no ability to see our signts we mount them on the side or the underside of the weapon. Wonder if a single panel member has every been coon hunting?

Unless someone blows a whistle on it, we will never have direct proof that this study was created to justify a predetermined conclusion. But to anyone who drives a pickup truck, the "study" has a ton of circumstantial evidence that the deck was loaded well before the first draft.

[Chills1994]

could you guys more in the know shed some light on what they were hinting at about rifles and/or handguns?

I mean.... are there rifles or handguns out there overseas that would be suitable for 3 gun if they could be imported?

slight thread drift....how do the Norinco 1897 shotguns used for CAS fit in?

[Alaskapopo]

Would our sports have more legitimacy, legal-wise, if we were shooting at only the IPSC classic targets?

Food for thought.

I don't want to go down that road. We are PC enough already.

Pat

[Aldrin]

Everyone is talking about Saigas but how is it any different than the Benellis? If the Saiga is caught up in this, the Benelli M2 wouldn't be allowed in the country either. The Benelli M2 tactical and Saiga are both imported with a 5 round magazine. The Saiga can have a larger box magazine installed and a Benelli can have an extended tube or XRail installed. Also, neither the Benelli or Saiga (as imported) has any of the 10 "non-sporting" firearm features specified.

The box magazine/tube magazine doesn't seem to matter according to this paragraph:

"In regard to sporting purposes, the working group found no appreciable difference between integral tube magazines and removable box magazines. Each type allowed for rapid loading, reloading, and firing of ammunition. For example, “speed loaders” are available for shotguns with tube-type magazines. These speed loaders are designed to be preloaded with shotgun shells

and can reload a shotgun with a tube-type magazine in less time than it takes to change a

detachable magazine."

Non of this really makes any sense to me.

[windscreen]

My take on reading the whole thing thoroughly, is the Saiga would continue to be legal to import under these guidelines (note, this stuff isn't officially yet, just out for public comment). Legal that is, provided they are not imported with any of the 10 forbidden items on the list:

(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;

(2) bayonet lugs;

(3) flash suppressors;

(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;

(5) grenade-launcher mounts;

(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);

(7) light enhancing devices; [night vision, twilight scope, etc - this note is added by Windscreen]

(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);

(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);

(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the

shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.

So, OK to import on the shotgun:

detachable box magazines - YES

strong hand pistol grip - YES

And again, this is not yet an official ATF guideline, but is out for public comment until 1 May 2011. You can provide the ATF with your feedback to shotgunstudy@atf.gov

-Steve

[SinistralRifleman]

could you guys more in the know shed some light on what they were hinting at about rifles and/or handguns?

With rifles primarily that they must come in incapable of accepting military high cap mags, without muzzle devices, bayonet lugs that kind of thing...the imported guns that have them are converted after the fact by adding sufficient US Made parts.

With pistols its more complicated. There is a points system for pistols to be considered sporting for import; its why glocks have a shallow thumbrest for example.

If they rule that USPSA/3 Gun is sporting, all that stuff goes out the window; military suitable firearms are directly applicable for use in the action shooting sports; though we modify the hell out of them. This is a huge can of worms for them because they would suddenly be saying 22 years of import restrictions are no longer valid.

Would our sports have more legitimacy, legal-wise, if we were shooting at only the IPSC classic targets?

Food for thought.

I doubt it. With the prevalence of first person shooter games as a form of entertainment, I don't think what we're shooting at matters much.

Legitimacy is gained through increased participation, and increased spectator interest.

First Person shooter games were controversial in the mid 1990s...main stream today. Not much controversy anymore since the rating system was implemented

UFC is no longer an underground shady thing, its a main stream sport like boxing since they got a rule set and were sanctioned. I really don't think you can get more violent than 2 guys beating the hell out of each other.

Action Shooting has always had rule sets and governing bodies; there just never was any substantial media exposure until the last 3 years. While we shoot at humanoid targets; they aren't graphic representations of shooting real people, nor is anyone actually injured as a regular course of the sport.

Edited January 28, 2011 by SinistralRifleman

[goat68]

Your summary and selected quotes are more positive than I expected. I was expecting the abolute worse.

[KentG]

I think S12s will be OK for now. I hope. Im just glad that someone didnt complain this thread was in the wrong forum. Again.

I also hear from several forums that even finding a Saiga shotgun after this week is hard to do. And jacked up on price.

Edited January 28, 2011 by tnek

[VegasSean]

I think S12s will be OK for now. I hope. Im just glad that someone didnt complain this thread was in the wrong forum. Again.

I also hear from several forums that even finding a Saiga shotgun after this week is hard to do. And jacked up on price.

Sorry about that... :-) I've just seen too many people misstate the facts, start a panic, and then sell all of their Saiga's for a heft markup. Must have read your post at the wrong time!