Nose dive jamb, STI Trojan 9mm

[Victor_R]

FMJ's and CMJ's with a OAL of 1.13 works just fine in my Trojan 9mm. I haven't had any problems with nose dives withthis OAL.

[BoldasLions]

I experienced a ridiculous amount of nose dive problems in my 40 Trojan, regardless of multiple OAL's and bullet combinations. Here's are some videos of the problem. My link & My link

Edited February 1, 2011 by BoldasLions

[G-ManBart]

I experienced a ridiculous amount of nose dive problems in my 40 Trojan, regardless of multiple OAL's and bullet combinations. Here's are some videos of the problem. My link & My link

There was a thread (more than one really) about .40 Trojans.

[Hannu]

9mm and non-ramped barrel... ? Go get decent quality ramped barrel and let your gunsmith machine the frame for it + fit the barrel.

Load to 1.17" and test again. Loading longer does not always help however, if 1.17" does not work you could try (for example) 1.10" or even shorter and test again.

If your gun has non-ramped barrel, you may need to do some mag tuning to make it work reliably.

You should also note, it is a whole different thing to feed straight walled .40 than strongly tapered 9mm. Both have their own little things how to make them feed reliable. Like G-man said, in general how far backwards bottom of the ramp extends has alot to do with feeding. Just make sure your magazines and ramp does not meet each other...

Wife´s 9mm single stack has fed all we have been feeding it with - so far shoots best groups with Zero 125gr JHP that looks pretty blunt nosed to me.

[R-Bros_JLR]

So I have been playing around trying to get my new Spartan to feed the MG 124 JHPs and think I may have stumbled across something. It really didn't like my load that I was running through my G34 at 1.120, so I loaded some all the way out to 1.160 and they seemed to feed a little better but I still wasn't happy. I then tried some down at 1.100 and HOLY CHIT they fed just like the fmj's I had laying around I was only able to hand cycle them and run just one mag through it but initial results seem very positive. I'll have more details by the weekend on how it performs.

[Bob DuBois]

I have a Trojan in 9mm that did the same at first, using Wilson 10 round mags, I removed two coil from the magazine spring. Polished the inside of the magazine along with the feed ramp. Bent the spring under the follower up just a little and don't hold back on the oil. These guns like oil and the feed ramp gets a drop then a slight wipe with a Q-Tip.

I use PD 147's and a lead flat point loaded to 1.140 works great. Anything any shorter than 1.120 and my pistol will jam.

[Victor_R]

The problems seems to come up when doing a slide lock reload and it's not all the time.

[R-Bros_JLR]

Well I sort of forgot about updating my findings with the Spartan since a buddy of mine bought it shortly after I made my post here. Loading the MG 124jhp bullets at 1.100" hand cycled fine but when I took it to the range I had several FTF's....sometimes multiples per mag. I'll have another one this weekend so I'll be back to the drawing board again trying to get these bullets to feed. Has anyone had any luck getting these bullets to work in a Spartan or am I just better off replacing them with a cmj?

[gordonm1]

Well I sort of forgot about updating my findings with the Spartan since a buddy of mine bought it shortly after I made my post here. Loading the MG 124jhp bullets at 1.100" hand cycled fine but when I took it to the range I had several FTF's....sometimes multiples per mag. I'll have another one this weekend so I'll be back to the drawing board again trying to get these bullets to feed. Has anyone had any luck getting these bullets to work in a Spartan or am I just better off replacing them with a cmj?

Same boat here with MG 124g HP so I bought a case of MG 115g cmj and I luv shooting over 4.25g tightgroup(my charge weight for the 124's). OAL is 1.10".

[Victor_R]

Here is what my friend Yong Lee said about the problem.

The nosing down of the ho...llow point has to do with several factors.

Number one issue is probably going to be your magazine problem. The hollow points are likely stacking improperly in the mag and coming out in a downward angle. Remember that 9mm cases are tapered, so they tend to stack funny in the first place. And hollow points have more pronounced shoulder, so they contribute to the stacking issue. And if you are using Glock fired cases without sizing them with a U-die, the bulge at the base will make it stack even worse. It's usually less of a problem in the single stack mags, but it looks like yours have issues. Loading them longer will help them stack better. Also check the width of the lips to make sure that they are not too narrow and making the rounds come out at downward angle.

Then there's another factor such as your recoil spring length. You have to make sure that it's not too long. If it is, your slide will short stroke and contribute to the issue. The slide won't have a full run at the bullet to make it properly transition in to the chamber. The spring needs to collapse fully in to the spring plug. You'll have to use a washer through the guide rod to push down on the spring against the plug to check.

And again, if your rounds are too short, the front of the bullet will hit the ramp too late during the cycle and get stuck on the bottom of the feed ramp. It needs to hit the ramp early so that it can start the transition process early. So loading them long will always help with reliability.

[whatsupglock]

I was having the same problem. Now my gun is running 100%. I've put RN, MG JHP, and Gold Dot hollow points through it without any problems. I changed the ejector. With the old ejector I could reproduce the problem 100% of the time. With the new ejector which is properly fitted, I can not reproduce the problem at all.

Mags are very tricky here. My trip mags will run RN with zero problems now. The Dawson Precision mags will run hollow points no problem and RN no problems now with the helper ramp.

Hopefully the slide lock reload nose dive issue for my gun is a thing of the past. Fingers crossed!

[Rik]

I put several thousand rounds of Blazer FMJ rn through my 9mm Trojan with never an issue. When I started loading JHP, had a lot of issues feeding. My gun smith (Otto, St. Louis) recut the ramp and it's been good since.

[Joe D]

I don't understand this love affair with JHP bullets for competition. My Spartan feeds flawlessly with plain old lead 160 gr RN bullets. JHP bullets are a needless expense. There is no need to use a U die with any brass. The Lee sizing die works perfectly. The main reason I bought a Spartan is it's non-ramped barrel.

[ss+P]

Mr. Freeze,

I bought 2 STI Trojan about 3 years ago now for IDPA and I had the same problem with both of them. I sent one back to Brazos and they put some new parts in it and still didn't really fix the problem. Brazos was great, great costumer service. Anyway they exchanged my magazines with newer ones, not the black mags but the silver ones. The new mags had a groove (for lack of a better term) in the front of the mag that seemed to allow them to stack better. This fixed the problem in both guns. Since then I have not had one FTF b/c of nose diving rounds. I can put whatever ammo I want in them, JHP, RN, Lead, Moly, it doesn't seem to matter.

Based on my expeirence I would say try and "easy" fix and see if whoever you bought it from will exchange the mags if you don't have the new ones before you spend a lot of money on a new barrel and polishing this and that if you are not familiar with them. I know I am not so I went back to the dealer and had them fix it.

Hope this helps

[whatsupglock]

I am amazed by how much of a difference magazines make in these single stack 9mm. My Trojan is my first venture into the SS minor world and it has been a challenge, but man the gun shoots so great. Having been down this road now, I would highly recommend to anyone having feed problems from slide lock to really scrutinize their magazines and see if they are the best fit/choice for that particular gun.

I am really impressed with the fit of the Dawson Precision mags for HP bullets, but I'll stick to my Tripp Cobra Mags for RN.

[Rik]

There weren't any Spartans when I bought my Trojan. Not for a few years.

[Mr Freeze]

Mr. Freeze,

I bought 2 STI Trojan about 3 years ago now for IDPA and I had the same problem with both of them. I sent one back to Brazos and they put some new parts in it and still didn't really fix the problem. Brazos was great, great costumer service. Anyway they exchanged my magazines with newer ones, not the black mags but the silver ones. The new mags had a groove (for lack of a better term) in the front of the mag that seemed to allow them to stack better. This fixed the problem in both guns. Since then I have not had one FTF b/c of nose diving rounds. I can put whatever ammo I want in them, JHP, RN, Lead, Moly, it doesn't seem to matter.

Based on my experience I would say try and "easy" fix and see if whoever you bought it from will exchange the mags if you don't have the new ones before you spend a lot of money on a new barrel and polishing this and that if you are not familiar with them. I know I am not so I went back to the dealer and had them fix it.

Hope this helps

Thank you for the feed back. I bought my Trojan 9mm last October from Brazos. I bought (4) "STI" 9 round mags with the gun (I am not sure who makes the mags for STI). When I had the nose dive problem, I called Brazos and they said that I could send it back and they would see what they could do to fix the feeding problem. I didn't really want to be without the gun so I bought (2) 10 round mags from Tripp to see if the mags were my problem. The new mags did the same thing; nose dive jamb on the first round only. I am now loading to OAL of 1.130 and they are feeding, but just barely on the ragged edge on the first round.

Thank you for the help. Sending it back to the expert is my next move.

[ck1]

Also a Trojan 9 owner here, and while I sympathize with your guys' plight of fighting off getting feed jams with JHP, would just like to point out or bring attention to the fact (in-case it isn't already obvious to some) that this is really more of an inherent problem with ALL 9mm 1911's in-general, and not just specifically with the Trojan's. Experiencing jams like the one's being described with JHP is probably more the norm than not, and just another caveat that comes with running the shorter OAL 9mm round in a design that was designed and for the longer OAL .45. Seems to me, no matter what is really done about it, due to the steepness of 9mm feed ramps and the amount of space in the breech allowing the potential for the cartridge to "roam" around on it's way out of the mag, a more blunt-shaped bullet is going to be less likely to chamber cleanly pretty much no matter what, and will probably never be as reliable as FMJ or a bullet with a rounder ogive will be as even those shapes tend to bounce their way into the chamber now and then. The things that can be done to fight the issue are known, but few, and unfortunately none are really 100%, like: load to a longer OAL so the cartridge has a better chance of pointing towards the chamber and not "roaming" on the way out of the mag (assuming the round isn't nosing-down in the mag which is pretty common), use stronger mag springs so the fresh round can be "boosted" up quicker to hopefully put it more in-line with the chamber, etc... I've heard some mention possibly recutting the feed ramp angle, and though I have no experience with this I sure would like to no more about it... I don't see how the ramp could be made more shallow without taking away case support from the back of the chamber, potentially fixing one problem by creating another (like the KaBoom's in .40 cal Glocks), if anyone has info about the process I'd be interested in hearing it?

Not trying to be a naysayer, or be like "FMJ or else!", but just wondering out loud if the prospect of running JHP in a 9mm 1911 is really worth the headache or isn't just asking too much from what already is a design compromise? Am I just possibly missing the upside of shooting JHP as mine runs like a clock with FMJ and can't see why it'd be worth the PITA?

[Mr Freeze]

I'm running MG 147gn CMJ (this is a semi-blunt nose bullet) and am having the problem with anything 1.140 and longer

[DWFAN]

i have never had the issue with the 9 round mags, the front ramp springfield type.

I have never had the problem with Tripp 10rd mags and the 147gr lead flat point/BBI.

I do have some new 10rd metal form elite mags that have a slight front ramp. Ive got some 124jhps loaded and will be testing those in practice before i run out of the 147 flat points.

[fred5876r]

I recently bought a 9mm Spartan but had shot it very little because I sent it off to get refinished (don't care for the Parked finish). Before it went off it was giving the nose-dive jams on rounds 1-3 (out of 10, Tripp Cobra mags), but I didn't think too much about it because I was using Ranier 147 HP plated at an indoor range (they are quite long and pointy). Got the gun back and same problem with every roundnose bullet I have (and MG CMJ also), except for some reason Federal American Eagle factory 124 FMJ. After reading this thread (and many others) I loaded some MG 147 CMJ out to 1.160 and that solved my problem. I just loaded up 50 that way for tomorrow's IDPA match, and will load them as the first 3 rounds (last 3 in) on each mag. I also bent the front of the mag springs up under the front end of the followers, as recommended by some - don't know if that contributed to the solution or not.

Edited April 9, 2011 by fred5876r

[fred5876r]

I just mentioned the nose-dive/OAL issue in an email to my gunsmith (1911 guru Rick McDowell) and he replied my recoil spring might be too strong. I swapped the 10 lb. that was in there for a 9 lb. and voila, my 1.140 OAL match loads (147 FMJ) suddenly load perfectly from round one from all 5 of my Tripp mags.

[TonyT]

I believe there is a fundamental problem with the geometry of the STI ramp.

MY SA 1911 Target 9mm functioned perfectly with all bullet shapes. The older Dan Wesson Pointman, without a ramped barrel, function sperfexctly using round nose FMJ's or plated with Metalform mags in either 9mm or 38 Super. The newer Dan Wesson PM-9, with ramped barrel, functions flawlessly with all bullet shapes but has a tight chamber and requires using the barel as case gauge - it also functions with 9mm and 38 Super metal form magazines but not with the 9mm SA cut variety. Both the PO18-9 and PO16-40 have been flawless performers.

In marked contrast, my STI Trojan, albeit in 40 S&W, has been temperemental at best. It works well with a particular load and a short time later provides virtually 100% nose dives from slidelock with the same ammo and magazines. I need to do a few more experiments along the lines suggested earlier.

[40S&W]

Just don't know why you don't use 9mm 115 gr. FMJ RN bullets and enjoy shooting without all the hassel. The majority of guns are not made to fire truncated & semi-truncated bullets wheter hollow point or not. If you want to use truncated & semi-truncated bullets buy a SIG. I own 4 diffent SIGs' and none of them have a problem shooting truncated & semi-truncated, HP, or RN. In my 1911s'... two STI race guns (9mm minor & 38SC), Springfield Loaded 1911 Stainless Target (9mm & 38Super Springfield barrels) all I shoot are 115 gr. FMJ RN bullets. My Colt custom single stack 40 S&W shoots anything (Kart competition non-ramped barrel).

In my 9mm & 38SC single stack I use Tripp 10 round mags, and in my Colt custom 40 S&W I use Tripp 10mm 9 round mags.

[Bob DuBois]

Just bought some Metalform ten round magazines for my Trojan 9mm about three weeks ago and so far they ran very well using 147gn Lead, Frontier and Precision Delta bullets.