Classifier Reshoots

[Flexmoney]

The question of reshoots came up on another topic. That topic ran it's course, but I think we can open a dialog here to discuss how, and why, reshoots are handled the way they are at various clubs.

To my knowledge, your local Match Director/club has the full authority to decide whether they will offer reshoots in addition to their regular match.

In the Ohio Section, we have clubs that offer reshoots...and clubs that don't. USPSA doesn't dictate this policy to the clubs.

And, there is good reason...

Each individual club has a whole laundry list of factors to consider. For some clubs, offering a reshoot is relatively easy. For other clubs...it could be nearly impossible.

....

[Detlef]

Flex,

this seems the wrong forum for this question, as you are probably referring to USPSA classifiers being shot multiple time. This is not a reshoot in the sense of the IPSC/USPSA rule book, and is therefore a policy matter, not a rule matter. Stage reshoots are clearly regulated in the rule book, and there is no authority to *grant* reshoots that rests with anyone. Th erule book states when to reshoot, period.

--Detlef

[Flexmoney]

Good point...I'll move this over to the USPSA discussions forum.

Thanks.

[Ron Ankeny]

Flex:

When we first started our club, I wasn't sure how to handle a "reshoot" on a classifier so I called Sedro. I was told that if a person flubs up a classifier so bad that it's going to be flagged, and if they didn't shoot to their known ability, we could allow a reshoot. Of course, we don't want someone just shooting over and over trying to get a score above their ability level. We let folks shoot a second gun along with the resooters, after the match, but they need to tear down.

[Skywalker]

Flex, better say "Classifiers re-shoot"; when I read the topic title I thought it concerned stage re-shoot for stage props failure, interference by the RO or something else...

[Flexmoney]

Done. Thanks.

[TriggerT]

As far as who can allow the reshoot, i believe that is up the the MD.

As far as why, case in point. I shoot 99-49 yesterday in Limited. the first time through, I had a DEATH jam from hell. HF ended up being 4.1..... I asked the MD if I could reshoot the classifier, since I am very close to mooving up in Limited. No problem, couple extra $, but of course my first run would be used for the match results that day. My second run my HF was 8.6.....

As far as why some clubs allow this and other don't, i can only think that some of them don't want to deal with the extra paper work.

[DJPoLo]

Of course, we don't want someone just shooting over and over trying to get a score above their ability level.

Why not? I certainly don't see the harm in that.

Just my $.02

-Chet

[Ron Ankeny]

Chet:

It's called grandbagging and USPSA asked us not to allow that type of behavior. I won't debate the good or bad of grandbagging other than to say I personally think it should be avoided. Reshooting in the hopes of doing better than what is to be expected ties up our ROs and slows down the process of getting things put away.

[Chuck D]

As a competitor, the only time I've reshot a classifier is if I was seeking a classification in another division (entered the match in L10, shot the classifier for score in L10 division then reshot it at the end of the squad for a Limited Division score) and to an instance failed MISERABLY in achieveing an acceptable score. I gave up that practice long ago.

As a match director, if the competitor had a major firearm malfunction I would allow him to reshoot it not for match score mind you but to send in to Sedro Woolley only. If you just "botched" it...better luck next match.

[TheOtherErik]

At my club, I dont recall even once that competitor paid to reshoot the classifier. Then again, I dont recall anyone asking. The general consensus is, that if you screw up, better luck next time. However another club in my section will let you shoot the classifier till you run out of ammo or dollars, which ever comes first.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

I have two questions:

1. Does the USPSA use actual major match results in the classification process? In other words, if you shoot an Area championship or the US Nationals, do your results count towards your classification?

2. If "yes" and you're not previously classified when you enter the match, do you get a classification as a result of your participation in a major match?

[lynn jones]

hi vince,

at a section, area match, or larger, the uspsa will use the match as a classifier if there is 3 or more GMs in that division. i

if someone is unclassified, and the requriement above is met, then that match is used as a classifier for that competitor.

hope this helps.

lynn

p.s. correct me if i'm wrong, vince, only major matches, levels 1, 2 or 3 are used for classification in other ipsc regions.

[Skywalker]

Lynn,

here in Italy we don't have/use classifiers to rank competitors.

Our policy is to average the best 4 sanctioned italian league matches (all the same 10 stages format) results that a competitor will score, to calculate its classification.

[Vince Pinto]

Lynn,

Thanks for the information.

For IPSC, I think you've got your match levels reversed. Any club or Region can put on actual ICS Classifier stages at a Level I to 3 match and submit those to HQ for inclusion. The biggest IPSC matches are Level IV (Continental Championships) and Level V (World Shoots), and results from those matches are automatically used in the ICS database if you are already classified.

What I'm not sure about (and I'm checking) is if you participate in a Level IV or V match without an ICS grade, do you get one because you shot the match.

I must confess that I've been distracted by Rules and other stuff I handle for IPSC to get very involved with the ICS (or WinMSS for that matter), so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details - my bad, but I've now enrolled in IPSC Sunday School

[GvU]

I thought this game tests your skill and equipment.

For this (each) test (stage) you get one chance only! So you you better have everything in top condition. Thats also why it's called practical shooting!

No multiple entries to get that "lucky super try" obtaining a high classification. This hides your real skills and quality of equipment.

John

[rhino]

Here at my home club (WVPPS), we allow reshoots for $5 and almost always it is for someone wanting to reshoot the classifier in a second division. I'm one of the few people who has even asked for it in the last few years, and I can't remember anyone ever wanting to repeat the classifier in the same division in that time.

The first run is always the score that counts for the match. All scores go to USPSA headquarters, much to the chagrin of some people who still think they can "cross out" their scoresheet or not sign it and expect me to not submit it. If you shoot it, it goes!

[Ron Ankeny]

I think we need to take geographical location into consideration. I have seen guys who drive for 3-4 hours to shoot a special classifier match and they might only shoot 3-4 classifiers a year. So here we have Joe Doe, driving from the far end of the state to shoot his first 4 classifiers in L10 Division so he can attend an Area shoot. Joe is pretty good, but he tanks a classifier real bad and his average would put him in the top of C class. Hmmm...Joe reshoots the classifier and ends up in the bottom of A class. I guess we should have stopped Joe and knowingly allowed him to shoot an area match 2 full classifications below his known ability level? Folks who really believe that had best never even mumble the word sandbagger.

BTW, that really did happen only his name wasn't Joe and he did shoot the classifier over. Also, it was a Tournament level match.

[RHall]

never mind

Edited March 11, 2004 by RHall

[snokid]

Ryan

The problem is it is really grandbagging. The first score should be your real score. I know you want to move up but, this can happen to you on any stage.

Say you reshoot any classifier that you don't think you shot up to your level, and you get grand master, but at the matches you get beat by "a class" shooters that don't reshoot the classifiers till they get a score they are comfortable with, well that's the system.

Don't get so hung up on being a "" class shooter just go and have fun, practice your butt off and your class will go up with out worrying about bombing a few classifiers.

Bob

[Jake Di Vita]

Bro,

You shouldn't reshoot classifiers because you screwed up and didn't shoot well...However I can understand it if what happened was something such as a gun malfunction, where it really doesn't show your true level of skill. Unfortulantly, you shooting that mike was an accurate representation of your current skill level, and thus should be taken into consideration for your classification.

Chances are, by the end of the summer this classifier won't even be admissible anymore...best bet is to forget it and move on.

[warpspeed]

I've got a couple of scores in the teens pulling down my Open classification to "C". Oh well. They will drop eventually. In the mean time, I have no intention of shooting a "major" match so I won't likely be accused of sandbagging

But the reality is that the 2 low score were a result on me fumbling the reload. So until I can successfully perform the mandatory reload, I should not be classified higher than a "C", right ?

[Flexmoney]

I'll throw in a little here....

The flip side of grandbagging is getting called a sandbagger.

And, that can happen easy enough if you are improving you skill at a quick pace. It's pretty easy to get ahead of the classification system, especially is you only get to shoot a classifer or two every month.

I don't feel that reshooting classifiers is grandbagging (though it could go there easy enough, but..who cares). I think the classifer that counts should be one that is representative of the shooter's current ability.

Anyway...sandbagging and grandbagging aren't what I worry about when running reshoots. I am more concerned with the logistics of running the match. I don't want to burn out the RO's, or watch as the tear-down crew gets in their cars and they drive home while two guys blast away at the classifier.

[GvU]

Travelling farther is just an extra reason to have your equipment (and skill) up to par. A match is not the place for trouble shooting!

How you perform should reflect more or less the average result in stages. If those are "up" and "down" on the stage results list you should work on becoming more consistent.

This is a on demand sport. Your turn to shoot; your performance (skills) now! Not trying again and again until you're satisfied.

If you want to shoot more, that's another story (training). Those results however do not reflect your on-demand skills, but, if you pay attention, show you the path to go.

If you'd get a better classification that way, you're skill (possibly equipment) will not perform to the expectations (of your classification) at for instance the nationals (that''s where you don't get the extra try (tries)). So you could even call that cheating!

In the end it's all about consistency!

Good luck, John

[banjobart]

I have never seen the shooting of extra classifers hold up a match. And I have seen a lot of re-shooting. The classifier stage usually goes twice as fast and the other stages in a match. The average classifier is 12 rounds, the average field course or speed shoot is 24 rounds.

At the club where this discussion originated, (I have shot 50 matches there in the last five years) the classifier is usually shot on range 1. We can hear the shooting at range 2 next door. So, after everyone has shot the classifier once we ask "anyone want to reshoot?" After those re-shoots we ask "any one want to re-shoot again?" Once the shooting stops on range 2 we head directly over there. We would much rather stay in the shade at range 1 rather than fry in the heat waiting our turn at range 2 while at the average match.