carlosa Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Is it illegal to step outside the shooting area once the course if fire has been started? If so can some one please point out the rule from the uspsa rule book? Thanks fellows Cheers, Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 You are allowed to step outside the shooting area, but all shots must be shot from within the shooting area. Does not state in the rule book you are unable to step outside the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Is it illegal to step outside the shooting area once the course if fire has been started? If so can some one please point out the rule from the uspsa rule book? Thanks fellows Cheers, Los Only if the WSB says that the shooter must remain in the shooting area... ETA: JoJo will do that one out of 6 stages every other week or so. You HAVE to read the WSB. Edited January 2, 2011 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 Lol thanks guys.. I thought that was the case. The last couple of weeks folks have looked at my funny when I cut the course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 If its not in the WSB you're free to step outside. I saw you shoot the stage and it looked like your plan helped you during your reloads. Interesting way to shoot the stage. Thats why they call it "Freestyle". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 Lol yeah some of my buddies told me I wasn't supposed to do that But everytime I asked them where in the rule book does it state that I couldn't do it, they can never tell me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 If the course designer did not want you to leave the shooting area, they have to mark the area you are not suppose to use as an Off Limits area. I don't think you can just say that you aren't allowed to leave the shooting area in the WSB. 2.2.1.5 Off-Limits Lines may be used to define an area of the range floor which has been declared off-limits. The written stage briefing must identify the presence and location of Off-Limits Lines (if any). The off-limits area must be clearly delineated with rope, caution tape or other materials and must be at least 2 feet high and at least 2 feet from any Fault Line or Shooting Box. (See Rule 10.2.11) 2.3.3.1: : c. Subject to 2.3.1.1(a) and (, an area of the range floor may be declared off limits. The area must be clearly delineated with Off-Limits Lines (Rule 2.2.1.3). Crossing an Off Limits Line is considered a Forbidden Action. d. Any Forbidden Action or Off Limits Area must be specified in the Written Stage Briefing (See Rules 2.3.3 and 3.2.3). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 From the current USPSA Rule book in the "Penalties" Section.... 10.2.9 A competitor who leaves a shooting location may return and shoot again from the same location provided they do so safely. However, written stage briefings for Classifiers, Standard Exercises and Level I matches may prohibit such actions, in which case one procedural penalty per shot fired will apply. So you can leave the shooting area and then return without penalty just as long as you are not shooting while you are outside the shooting area. One thing to keep in mind about this is at the end of the rule statment it shows that a Level 1 match (Local Club match) the WSB can define that leaving the shooting area is not allowed. But doing so would only incur one procedural per occurance (Leaving and returning to the shooting area). If you are shooting while outside the shooting area you would incur one procedural penalty per shot fired. If you find a creative way to navigate the stage which has you leaving and returning to the shooting area that is legal unless the WSB specifictly states otherwise. USPSA is suppose to be based on "Freestyle" figure it out yourself shooting. To keep this charter alive we need to allow the shooters to figure out the best plan without limiting their options. If you find a loop hole in a stage which ends up being a significant advantage then that is a lesson for the stage designer to build a better stage next time. Unless of course the actions you are performing are unsafe, then that is a differnet story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 The WSB for that stage stated, "Engage targets from within shooting area only." It DID NOT specify any off limits area. There was a clearly defined shooting "path/area". Any "area" outside was deemed "non shooting area". Carlos, The guys you were shooting with were just jealous they didn't think of it. But IMHO, it kind of was a time killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 Thanks for the reference to the rule book guys. I'll stick this info in my back pocket for the next time. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Not to be argumentative, but I'm trying to grok 10.2.9. It only talks about returning to a shooting location and shooting again from the same location. I was under the impression that the OP left the shooting area at one location, and re-entered the shooting area and started shooting in another location. For example: If the level I stage looked like this zig zag course and it said that the shooter may not leave the shooting area: The shooter cuts most of the corners of the zig zag but safely engages targets only while within the shooting area, how would the penalty from 10.2.9 apply since each new entry into shooting area is a new shooting location? (For full disclosure, I set up this course earlier this year, but I complied with the rope delimiters and declaring off limits areas requirements. Setting the up the ropes were a pain in the butt, and I'm wondering if I could have made my life easier by laying down fault lines only and written something into the WSB.) Edited January 2, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Yeah, 10.2.9 doesn't apply to this question. It's geared more towards shooting boxes and the like. The simple answer is yes, you may leave and return to the shooting area, unless there are off limits lines imposed. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Fine for USPSA. In IPSC , you might run into a problem. Over on Vince's Village there has been some creative interpretations (IMO) of what the rules say on what faulting a line means. For instance, some in IPSC believe that you cannot have a start position from outside the shooting area because, as you enter the shooting area, you fault the line. I believe it was said that fault lines have no sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 Fine for USPSA. In IPSC , you might run into a problem. Over on Vince's Village there has been some creative interpretations (IMO) of what the rules say on what faulting a line means. For instance, some in IPSC believe that you cannot have a start position from outside the shooting area because, as you enter the shooting area, you fault the line. I believe it was said that fault lines have no sides. Yeah I think most of the folks that frown on it are also Ipsc shooters. So if Ipsc rules are different I could see where the confusion comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Sounds right. I am not sure the rules themselves are different...but those reading them tend to decide what they want...and then wrap the words to fit. I am not saying your shooting buddies are doing that...just that that is the environment that has likely trickled down to them. (I don't mean this as an IPSC vs. USPSA thing...just that it may be looked at differently) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 From the current USPSA Rule book in the "Penalties" Section.... 10.2.9 A competitor who leaves a shooting location may return and shoot again from the same location provided they do so safely. However, written stage briefings for Classifiers, Standard Exercises and Level I matches may prohibit such actions, in which case one procedural penalty per shot fired will apply. That seems to be the key part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 10.2.9 seems to be referring to leaving a shooting box ie shoot these targets from box, move to box b and shoot theses targets. Also define shooting location. How can you ever be sure of the exact same spot and how specific of a spot would it be unless it is defined by a shooting box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Fine for USPSA. In IPSC , you might run into a problem. Over on Vince's Village there has been some creative interpretations (IMO) of what the rules say on what faulting a line means. For instance, some in IPSC believe that you cannot have a start position from outside the shooting area because, as you enter the shooting area, you fault the line. I believe it was said that fault lines have no sides. Actually Flex, the main objection there is that if there is a valid target visible from the start position before you enter the shooting area, you CANNOT tell the shooter he cannot engage it per 1.1.5 ... Freestyle ~ Must be able to shoot all targets on an "as and when visible" basis. If it is visible, he is free to engage it at any time after the beep. This also plays into a stricter intrepretation of 2.1.4 in that they (in theory) prohibit any setup whereby a target has the scoring surface visible from past the 180. (Gee ... We've seen that one discussed a time or two on the BE!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) just saw the stage results i had the fastest time in SS stack on that stage, came in second to Mr Quan who was a second slower but shot 9 more points than me. I was 11/72 over all on that stage Edited January 4, 2011 by carlosa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Fine for USPSA. In IPSC , you might run into a problem. Over on Vince's Village there has been some creative interpretations (IMO) of what the rules say on what faulting a line means. For instance, some in IPSC believe that you cannot have a start position from outside the shooting area because, as you enter the shooting area, you fault the line. I believe it was said that fault lines have no sides. Actually Flex, the main objection there is that if there is a valid target visible from the start position before you enter the shooting area, you CANNOT tell the shooter he cannot engage it per 1.1.5 ... Freestyle ~ Must be able to shoot all targets on an "as and when visible" basis. If it is visible, he is free to engage it at any time after the beep. This also plays into a stricter intrepretation of 2.1.4 in that they (in theory) prohibit any setup whereby a target has the scoring surface visible from past the 180. (Gee ... We've seen that one discussed a time or two on the BE!) Really? Wow, that's something I'd have thought the rules would cover through 10.2.1 (that specifically cites being beyond a box/fault line while firing as a procedural, and further describes significant advantage [say, that target wasn't otherwise available in the shooting area w/o leaning around a barricade] as incurring penalty per shot fired), or is there no equivalent rule in the IPSC rulebook? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMuffin Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 From the current USPSA Rule book in the "Penalties" Section.... 10.2.9 A competitor who leaves a shooting location may return and shoot again from the same location provided they do so safely. However, written stage briefings for Classifiers, Standard Exercises and Level I matches may prohibit such actions, in which case one procedural penalty per shot fired will apply. So you can leave the shooting area and then return without penalty just as long as you are not shooting while you are outside the shooting area. One thing to keep in mind about this is at the end of the rule statment it shows that a Level 1 match (Local Club match) the WSB can define that leaving the shooting area is not allowed. But doing so would only incur one procedural per occurance (Leaving and returning to the shooting area). If you are shooting while outside the shooting area you would incur one procedural penalty per shot fired. I'm not sure I understand here -- if a level 1 match says the shooter must remain in the shooting area and I leave and come back in without firing a shot, there's one procedural penalty per shot? So that'd be zero procedurals? Is this intended to be one procedural per shot fired from that point on since you supposedly got a competitive advantage? What if instead I faulted at the end of the same stage, say I lean out and shoot the last target around a barrier and keep on going (we call that the "flying dismount")? No shots were fired after that. I'm thinking the verbage in 10.2.9 needs some work. Here's some more food for thought: 2.3.1 c. Subject to 2.3.1.1(a) and (, an area of the range floor may be declared off limits. The area must be clearly delineated with Off-Limits Lines (Rule 2.2.1.3). Crossing an Off Limits Line is considered a Forbidden Action. 10.2.11 A competitor who commits a Forbidden Action (See Rules 2.3.1.1 and 3.2.6) will be stopped immediately and receive a zero score for the stage. Flagrant or intentional violation may be subject to disqualification (See Rule 10.6). An off-limits line is far more serious than just putting something in the stage description. I can't imagine where I would ever use an off-limits line in stage design. If you're going to do the rope or tape thing and stay back 2' from fault lines, it's easier to just put up a barrier to start with (or use the rope as a barrier. If they really want to jump or duck it, sounds like it would add some spice to the match). I'm perfectly happy with this situation too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Fine for USPSA. In IPSC , you might run into a problem. Over on Vince's Village there has been some creative interpretations (IMO) of what the rules say on what faulting a line means. For instance, some in IPSC believe that you cannot have a start position from outside the shooting area because, as you enter the shooting area, you fault the line. I believe it was said that fault lines have no sides. Actually Flex, the main objection there is that if there is a valid target visible from the start position before you enter the shooting area, you CANNOT tell the shooter he cannot engage it per 1.1.5 ... Freestyle ~ Must be able to shoot all targets on an "as and when visible" basis. If it is visible, he is free to engage it at any time after the beep. This also plays into a stricter intrepretation of 2.1.4 in that they (in theory) prohibit any setup whereby a target has the scoring surface visible from past the 180. (Gee ... We've seen that one discussed a time or two on the BE!) Really? Wow, that's something I'd have thought the rules would cover through 10.2.1 (that specifically cites being beyond a box/fault line while firing as a procedural, and further describes significant advantage [say, that target wasn't otherwise available in the shooting area w/o leaning around a barricade] as incurring penalty per shot fired), or is there no equivalent rule in the IPSC rulebook? First, you're reading too much into it. What I said was if there is a valid target visible from the start position before you enter the shooting area ... There's no leaning or taking any advantage in that impiled. Second, the international viewpoint is that 1.1.5 (Freestyle) is the Bible! You must be allowed to shoot any target you can see without fear of it being out of bounds, or with having to remember to move from OUTSIDE the area to INSIDE the area before you begin. If it's visible from the start position, it's fair game and any instruction to move into a designated shooting area BEFORE you are allowed to engage it violates 1.1.5. (I'm not saying I fully agree with the view ... I'm just explaining what it is!) About the only time I see internationally that they allow a start outside the area and have you move insde the area before you shoot is if (for example) your gun is on a table inside the shooting area and you have to retrieve it before you start shooting anyway. (Or something like that.) In the same way, they try very hard to put up a vision barrier or prop to hide the targets once they are past the 180 so that you cannot engage them without shooting through a prop. (A good visual clue that you shouldn't be shooting that target!) Remember ... Just explaining ~ Not defending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Interesting IPSC perspective... So if this were not an IPSC classifier: an IPSC shooter should be allowed to hose everything from within Box A. Since it's a IPSC classifier, the IPSC shooter is compelled to shoot the appropriate targets from the designated shooting areas as stated in the WSB (http://www.ipsc.org/ics/medium/CLC-63.pdf). Even more interesting is this stage is not a USPSA classifier. If I set this up as regular stage at a Level I match, I can still designate which targets have to be hit when in a particular shooting area, like the classifier, but I can't do the same for Level II or III, though. I'd need to setup appropriate vision barriers or walls to get the desired effect. To bring this back on topic, if I understand 10.2.9 correctly, at a level I match, I can say something like "once you have exited shooting area A, or C, you may not re-enter." The question I have is: can I legally say the same for area B? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Skydiver, in theory, yes you can..... In reality -- it's pretty boring stage design -- though we've done similar stuff, usually in the winter, when we wanted to restrict movement, due to range conditions. QWe might have set up two boxes, in close proximity, and had a third shooting area in between, with target arrays.... In good weather -- freestyle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 First, you're reading too much into it. What I said was if there is a valid target visible from the start position before you enter the shooting area ... There's no leaning or taking any advantage in that impiled. That is simply one of the bad viewpoints that some in IPSC hold. Which is easily countered by... Second, the international viewpoint is that 1.1.5 (Freestyle) is the Bible! If you are starting outside the shooting area...and it is freestyle...then you can enter the shooting area anywhere you want. Given the freestyle argument, you could run around the outside of the shooting area, head down range and muzzle blast targets...without ever entering the shooting area. The mindset leads to the..interesting...applications of the rules. Which included the fault line that didn't have a side to it (cross it in any direction and shoot = penalty), and flat out no outside the shooting area starts. I probably shouldn't have even brought it up, but I figured the opening poster shot with some folks with an IPSC background and that might have been where their perspective was coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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