Group Shooting

[ErikW]

Background: I can't shoot groups. I shoot off a bipod and I never got a rear sandbag that fits, so my group sizes hurt. My most accurate MatchKing groups shot with a scope look like 55 gr surplus FMJ groups shot by somebody else on a windy day. I have no idea how well my rifles shoot because I can't shoot anywhere near MOA.

Yesterday I finally got to use the 200 yard line to zero my Limited rifle and get a little practice. I put two white strips of tape horizontally above the letter A of an IPSC target's main A zone. (I already had the windage zeroed at 40 y; I just needed to get the elevation on at 185 y.) After ringing a 210 y gong a couple times with moly FMJ to coat the bore and warm up the barrel, I put a GI 30 round mag containing 3 69 SMKs in the gun and used the mag as a monopod rest on the bench. No bag, no bipod, no scope, just like a Limited match (with a bench).

The IPSC target was barely visible above my front sight post. I let the first one fly, and the next two came very quickly, because the sight picture was right and I was in a hurry and I was just trying to see if my elevation was on.

When I walked up to the 185 y target, the three holes were in a one-inch group. Sub MOA, iron sights, resting on a magazine, rushing shots.

Later I went for a 5 shot group. Shooting much more deliberately, I was back to my normal self, a nice shotgun pattern.

[Nik Habicht]

ERik,

Hose away!

[short_round]

... the Jedi Master began Luke's training in earnest. Telekinetic challenges, challenges of the will and body, more challenges than Luke had ever faced before helped mold the reckless youth into a Jedi. Still, Luke failed to "unlearn" his preconceptions. When asked to raise his sunken starfighter from the Dagobah swamps with the power of his mind alone, he responded he would try. "No," scolded Yoda. "Do, or do not. There is no try." Luke did not believe the Force could lift such a massive object. He was proven wrong when Yoda telekinetically lifted the X-wing fighter and placed it on dry land. Again, Luke was incredulous -- he did not believe; that is why he failed.

[George]

I have shot 3 round, one holers before and they are usually not very repeatable. A true group is at least five rounds, but should really be ten. Put 10 in 1.5 inch at 200 yards and you know you and the rifle are doing it. Less than five and the laws of chance say it was time to get in on the Lottery

But seriously, the groups of ten that I have put into .5 to .75 MOA at 200 yards have usually been the first group in a session. If it isn't happening easily, forcing the shots tend to open up the groups big time.

I am only a so-so group shooter and am no great shakes from a bench, so I usually do group shooting prone, from a bipod with a sandbag that is not quite high enough under the pistol grip. I fine tune elevation with my weakhand between the pistolgrip and the sandbag. I breathe steady and excercise all of the routines for a relaxed, steady hold. Wait for a clean letoff with the best follow through that I possibly can and WTF, I still get lot's more over 1 MOA groups than .5 to .75 ones. I can get Sub MOA when everything is right on and "I" am in the groove, but not very often and my .5 to .75 MOA loads and rifles are usually no better 1 to 1.25 MOA on demand in my hands.

I still get good results often enough to have total confidence in the rifle/ammo combo, but groups like you are talking about are usually a lot less repeatable than we would like to think they are. Group shooting is an art, and I am only a technician, of that I am painfully aware

Do not feel bad about 2 MOA groups with irons at 200 yards, that's A-OK shootin'

--

Regards,

[Skywalker]

... the Jedi Master began Luke's training in earnest. Telekinetic challenges, challenges of the will and body, more challenges than Luke had ever faced before helped mold the reckless youth into a Jedi. Still, Luke failed to "unlearn" his preconceptions. When asked to raise his sunken starfighter from the Dagobah swamps with the power of his mind alone, he responded he would try. "No," scolded Yoda. "Do, or do not. There is no try." Luke did not believe the Force could lift such a massive object. He was proven wrong when Yoda telekinetically lifted the X-wing fighter and placed it on dry land. Again, Luke was incredulous -- he did not believe; that is why he failed.

Short Round,

you been writing my biography?

Erik,

maybe you suffer the same I do? Read this post

[rhino]

When I walked up to the 185 y target, the three holes were in a one-inch group. Sub MOA, iron sights, resting on a magazine, rushing shots.

Later I went for a 5 shot group. Shooting much more deliberately, I was back to my normal self, a nice shotgun pattern.

It sounds like you might (and correct me if I'm wrong) be overthinking your sight picture when you try to shoot groups deliberately. From your results, I would guess that on the one good group you shot, you just worked the trigger when the sight picture was "good enough," which combined with good trigger control almost always produced good results.

In the latter, I'm guessing you waited too long and never allowed your instincts to trip the trigger as you passed through the same point in your natural "wobble."

I never thought about this until I took some classes (defensive) from Louis Awerbuck last summer. He is a very wise and experienced teacher and my accuracy has improved quite a bit since then.

Also, when you shoot your groups, in addition to trusting your sight picture when it's "good enough," you might also want to try pinning the trigger (holding it depressed all the way) after each shot to make sure of your follow through. You may already be doing that, but it's worth mentioning.

[Sam]

Erik, when shooting the irons it really helps me to always touch my nose to the charging handle. The first time I did this was the first time I shot a 1" 100 yard group. Unlike Bill Clinton, my nose is always exactly the same length. So, my eye is always in the same relationship to the rear sight. If you haven't been doing this, (maybe you have because you are an exceptionally bright fellow) please give it a try. Certainly, your technique was excellent when you shot the group off the magazine "monopod". I'd keep shooting that way until I could figure out what you are doing right. Then keep doing it.

[tightloop]

George

I respectfully disagree that you must fire 5 shots to qualify for a group. Big Mag cartridges usually only fire 3 rounds, benchresters and varmint shooters are welcome to shoot 5, if they choose.

My 300 will shoot 3 shot groups in the 3's and 4's all day long, just let it cool in between shots...

[George]

Hi TL,

I respectfully disagree that you must fire 5 shots to qualify for a group. Big Mag cartridges usually only fire 3 rounds, benchresters and varmint shooters are welcome to shoot 5, if they choose.

I know that threesies are De’Rigeur in certain disciplines, but in truly knowing the inherent accuracy of a rifle/ammo/shooter combo, 5 is better and 10 is twice as good when it gets down to eliminating the possibility that two rounds strayed in the same direction as the first one. That is statistically possible but is not easily repeatable.

If I went by three round group results, I would call my JP-AR a .25er because I have several one hole 3 round results from it's history. My my 10k + Eagle 1:9 upper must be a .5er because I have gotten exactly one result like Erik described from it with a 3 round burst, but typically can shoot 1 MOA five shot groups and 1.5 MOA ten shot groups with it all day long.

Statistical sampling frowns on so few samples if you really want the truth about you and your gear

--

Regards,

[kellyn]

Speed is irrelevant. When the sights look good: SHOOT! The best thing I learned thing I learned from Marine Corps Team shooters at Camp Perry was to shoot when the shot looked good. Don't try and dress up the sight picutre with a Limited gun becuase you'll burn the image into your retina and will be viewing a false sight picture. Or as Eli Wallach says "If you're going to shoot, SHOOT. Don't talk."

[benos]

With any gun, I've always shot my tightest groups with a deliberate, decisive attitude.

The more you f' around with it, the worse the groups.

And in this case is why a plan, outlined in this thread, can help.

be

[MikeThomas]

I can't shoot groups either, certain days I can kill it, other days I swear it's the gun.  At the end of the day, it has always been me....