9mm powders..for use with lead bullets..

[Size 10]

Hi all;

I'm looking for some powder that will at least cut down on the smoke..I know using cast lead you'll always get some smoke, but I'd like to cut down on it if possible. I've been using Titegroup, with good results, however, it is smokey..I did a search, and stayed up late last night reading, and frankly I'm somewhat overwhelmed with all the information available..I've narrowed my choices down to, Solo 1000,Although I'm not crazy about the lot to lot inconsistencys I've read about. And this is the hard part, I can get Winchester powders at the store I'm going to today, they have 231,WST WSF, in stock,Which of the three would be a good choice for use with Cast lead? I'm using Missoiri Bullets 125gr "small ball" and no, I'm not compeating so, it dosen't have to make major, minor, but does need to be accurate, consistent, and at least cut down on the smoke..Suggestions??

[Sudden Death]

I use Rex 2 for 9mm lead or FMJ

[DougCarden]

WST will give you the best recoil characteristics, but 231 will work really well to. Smoke is minimal with them compared to TG, which smokes like a Locomotive!

Good luck,

DougC

[robertbank]

Hi all;

I'm looking for some powder that will at least cut down on the smoke..I know using cast lead you'll always get some smoke, but I'd like to cut down on it if possible. I've been using Titegroup, with good results, however, it is smokey..I did a search, and stayed up late last night reading, and frankly I'm somewhat overwhelmed with all the information available..I've narrowed my choices down to, Solo 1000,Although I'm not crazy about the lot to lot inconsistencys I've read about. And this is the hard part, I can get Winchester powders at the store I'm going to today, they have 231,WST WSF, in stock,Which of the three would be a good choice for use with Cast lead? I'm using Missoiri Bullets 125gr "small ball" and no, I'm not compeating so, it dosen't have to make major, minor, but does need to be accurate, consistent, and at least cut down on the smoke..Suggestions??

The smoke comes from the burning off of the lube used in lead bullets. The only way you can cut down on the smoke is to shoot jacketed bullets. I prefer lead and put up with the smoke that goes along with them.

Take Care

Bob

[Duke Nukem]

I got 80% less smoke going from TG to WSF using the same lead bullets. Clays was even less smoke but it tumbled.

The smoke comes from the burning off of the lube used in lead bullets. The only way you can cut down on the smoke is to shoot jacketed bullets. I prefer lead and put up with the smoke that goes along with them.

Take Care

Bob

[Size 10]

Thanks Guys;

I came back from the store today with a pound of Solo 1000 to try and a pound of W231, I've already loaded 200rnds of 231 to try out,The range I go to is closed this weekend for deer hunting. (I live in OH) so, it maybe a week or so before I can try these out..

[noylj]

Jut my normal caution: do not try to reach max load with a powder as fast as Solo 1000.

My experience is the less velocity you want, the faster the powder you need to get consistent results. I have gone as far down as N310, but the slow loads I was comfortable with weren't very accurate and any increase seemed to raise pressure much to fast.

For .40, I prefer AA2 231/HP38, and AA5 for target-type loads. I am not a competitor and just want "Bullseye" type loads with accuracy, so I know that almost everyone on this site has load requirements I don't. I just want to remind that a lot of the loads listed only make sense in terms of competition where totally extraneous factors such as smoke and getting your gun dirty are more important that which powder gives the best accuracy, since sub-1" accuracy is not a need. I do, however, see a lot of the loads for minor as being of interest to me.

However, 9x19 is such a small case and almost any bullet set-back could generate really high pressures, I am somewhat concerned about a powder much faster than 231/HP38 (I read about AA N100 and Solo 1000 and they seem just a bit too fast and any overcharge could be a disaster. I already have tried to go to certain shoots and been told that I can only fire factory ammo in .40 and they were thinking of ruling the same for 9x19 and .38 Super.

Make sure you work with a long COL and have very good bullet tension. I would think that N320 and N340 might be almost perfect for your needs. The cost a bit more per pound, but on a per-shot basis they aren't that bad and I have certainly seen little smoke from them.

I will say that TiteGroup does generate a lot of smoke for me whether shooting moly-koted bullets, LLA-coated bullets, or wax-coated bullets and other powders smoke less.

[Size 10]

Jut my normal caution: do not try to reach max load with a powder as fast as Solo 1000.

My experience is the less velocity you want, the faster the powder you need to get consistent results. I have gone as far down as N310, but the slow loads I was comfortable with weren't very accurate and any increase seemed to raise pressure much to fast.

For .40, I prefer AA2 231/HP38, and AA5 for target-type loads. I am not a competitor and just want "Bullseye" type loads with accuracy, so I know that almost everyone on this site has load requirements I don't. I just want to remind that a lot of the loads listed only make sense in terms of competition where totally extraneous factors such as smoke and getting your gun dirty are more important that which powder gives the best accuracy, since sub-1" accuracy is not a need. I do, however, see a lot of the loads for minor as being of interest to me.

However, 9x19 is such a small case and almost any bullet set-back could generate really high pressures, I am somewhat concerned about a powder much faster than 231/HP38 (I read about AA N100 and Solo 1000 and they seem just a bit too fast and any overcharge could be a disaster. I already have tried to go to certain shoots and been told that I can only fire factory ammo in .40 and they were thinking of ruling the same for 9x19 and .38 Super.

Make sure you work with a long COL and have very good bullet tension. I would think that N320 and N340 might be almost perfect for your needs. The cost a bit more per pound, but on a per-shot basis they aren't that bad and I have certainly seen little smoke from them.

I will say that TiteGroup does generate a lot of smoke for me whether shooting moly-koted bullets, LLA-coated bullets, or wax-coated bullets and other powders smoke less.

Noylj;

Thanks for the heads up..The only reason I bought Solo, was from what I've read on this board about it. I'm aware of the lot to lot inconsisency's with it, and I intend to start out cautiously with it. One of the pistol I'm going to use is a HK P-2000, using the dowel -rod method for finding a OAL, I'm ending up with a OAL of 1.090 with this pistol,In my loadbook for the 9mm, it has a load listed for Solo of 3.6 gr..I'm going to look around here and see what else I can find in the way of loads for this powder..

Edited December 18, 2010 by Size 10

[GOF]

Can't help with 124 grain cast bullets, but I have shot quite a few 147 grain cast in a 9mm with WSF (3.5 grains 880 fps from 4.25 barrel). I don't have smoke issues. WSF seems to have an ideal burn rate for the small 9mm case and has become the only powder I use for match & practice 9mm loads. At 3.5 grains you can get a lot of loads from a 7000 grain pound of powder.

GOF

[CeeZer]

Try Clays (not Universal) as well, I load plated Berry's 124gr RN over 3.3gr Clays with OAL 1.11". Load is quite soft and accurate. Clays has same burning rate as N320, it's measuring well in my Hornady LNL AP.

With lead bullet, you may start at 2.8-3.0gr depending on OAL; just make sure bullets leave barrel with lower load.

[Emerson]

I like HP-38/231 for cast bullets.

[twikster]

you might try a few different lubes, too, or have your caster do so. I've never been much of a 9mm guy, so I can't help much there. I never noticed smoke with cast .45's, and Bullseye, just a lot of carbon and wax residue. I used a 50-50 Alox/beeswax mix for bullet lube.

[JB38Super]

We recommend WST, Solo 1000 and Accurate Arms #2 to all of our bullet customers. Solo is great but does have issues with temperature changes. If you want to avoid that, use WST.

Jim

[twodownzero]

Solo 1000 works for me. 3.4-3.5 @ 1.120" and a 147 grain lead or moly bullet shoots great.

[BallisticianX]

Ive had good luck and great accuracy with Unique. It doesn't smoke much at all. The newer lots are even better as far as smoke and residue left in the barrel. As far as the smokiness of titegroup, Ive been using it in my .45 for awhile and I'm not seeing any more smoke than any other of the abundance of powders I have. When it comes to lead cast bullets, there's gonna be smoke, no matter what. The type of powder is not as critical as the charge your loading as far as smoke production. heavier charges cause more heat singing the lube and more pressure causing gas cutting and heal erosion. This causes smoke from burning lube and lead vapor. So use lighter charges or gas checks to really have an impact on smoke.

[Size 10]

Ive had good luck and great accuracy with Unique. It doesn't smoke much at all. The newer lots are even better as far as smoke and residue left in the barrel. As far as the smokiness of titegroup, Ive been using it in my .45 for awhile and I'm not seeing any more smoke than any other of the abundance of powders I have. When it comes to lead cast bullets, there's gonna be smoke, no matter what. The type of powder is not as critical as the charge your loading as far as smoke production. heavier charges cause more heat singing the lube and more pressure causing gas cutting and heal erosion. This causes smoke from burning lube and lead vapor. So use lighter charges or gas checks to really have an impact on smoke.

Thanks..I'm well aware of the causes of the smoke, I myself have been loading for 29years, I understand with lead bullets, you'll always have smoke. I'm just looking at cutting it down a little. I loaded some 9mm up using 4.0gr of W-231 and ran them through my P-2000..Excellant results! less smoke, very accurate..I think the titegroup will now be regulated to use in the .45..

[BMartens]

I settled on TG for all jacketed/plated bullets in 9mm and WSF for all lead/molly bullets.

Works great, good accuracy and way less smoke for the the lead/moly loads.

[LikesToShoot]

I settled on TG for all jacketed/plated bullets in 9mm and WSF for all lead/molly bullets.

Works great, good accuracy and way less smoke for the the lead/moly loads.

+1

For 9mm, TG for jacketed/plated bullets and WSF for lead, these are the powders I'm happy with.

I've tried a bunch of powders and I'm not spending anymore time and money chasing anything else.

[Cy Soto]

I settled on TG for all jacketed/plated bullets in 9mm and WSF for all lead/molly bullets.

Works great, good accuracy and way less smoke for the the lead/moly loads.

+1

For 9mm, TG for jacketed/plated bullets and WSF for lead, these are the powders I'm happy with.

I've tried a bunch of powders and I'm not spending anymore time and money chasing anything else.

Titegoup might produce a lighter recoil impulse but, in my experience, WSF is more accurate than TG. So why not use WSF for jacketed bullets?

[LikesToShoot]

Titegoup might produce a lighter recoil impulse but, in my experience, WSF is more accurate than TG. So why not use WSF for jacketed bullets?

I shoot action pistol games so I don't need to shoot tight groups.

WSF for lead bullets works for me with steel plates.

TG and it's lighter recoil works well for me with USPSA and IDPA games.

CY, What are your 9mm loads?

Bullet, powder, COL and FPS please?

Thanks

[Cy Soto]

CY, What are your 9mm loads?

Bullet, powder, COL and FPS please?

For years I shot bare lead bullets but as I age, I have become lazier (if that is even possible) and have decided that I want to spend more time shooting instead of cleaning firearms. I am also concerned with exposure to lead and its effects on the human body. For these reasons, I have decided to stop shooting bare lead bullets.

I should also mention that I have tried both plated as well as moly-coated bullets but I do not see a good reason to use either of these. The plated bullets are nearly as expensive as FMJ bullets and the moly-coated bullets are just as dirty as bare lead. In fact, I have found out that removing stubborn moly residue from a barrel is significantly more difficult than removing lead. They also smoke really badly and they are not any more accurate than FMJ bullets.

In the past years have tried several different 9mm minor loads. Most of these loads have been with 124gr bullets. Because 147grainers seem to be so popular amongst Production shooters, I shot these for a while but, out of personal preference and nothing more, I prefer the feel of the recoil impulse of 124gr bullets.

This past month alone I have played with three different loads for minor. I have attached a PDF file of my results.

Out of these loads, I obtained the best overall results with 4.7gr of WSF behind a 124gr Precision Delta JHP bullet with an OAL of 1.100” and a crimp of 0.376”. As you can see from the data, I am getting a Power Factor of approximately 130 with the best accuracy of the loads tested. This load produced groups under 2” at 25yds rested and it is very clean burning. On the flip side, it does produce a bit more felt recoil. I ran a few Bill Drills to try to find out if this was slowing down my splits but this turned out not to be the case. My splits remained the same with all three loads so this became a moot point of contention.

Solo 1000 was a close contender but, when used with 124gr bullets, you need so much powder to get to the appropriate PF that this becomes a compressed load. In the past, when I was suing 147gr bullets, S1000 proved to be the best performer. This is also my favorite powder for .40S&W (both Major and Minor). The accuracy with Solo was closer to 3” at 25yds rested, which is certainly not bad for USPSA.

Both Solo and Titegroup, being faster powders, produce nimbler felt recoil but, truth be told, after the buzzer goes off, I am not paying much attention to how hard the pistol is recoiling. The accuracy of Titegroup was neither better nor worse than that of Solo but TG is SIGNIFICANTLY dirtier. This powder is inexpensive and readily available; I just did not care for all the sooth that it leaves on the gun. TG was also the only of the powders that produced smoke with these JHP bullets.

If need be, I would happily shoot with any of these powders but, having found a WSF load that shoots about an inch tighter than the other ones, I decided to stick with it for the time being. It is very possible that next year I will find another powder that I will like even better and so the search for the perfect load continues…

[BMartens]

I settled on TG for all jacketed/plated bullets in 9mm and WSF for all lead/molly bullets.

Works great, good accuracy and way less smoke for the the lead/moly loads.

+1

For 9mm, TG for jacketed/plated bullets and WSF for lead, these are the powders I'm happy with.

I've tried a bunch of powders and I'm not spending anymore time and money chasing anything else.

Titegoup might produce a lighter recoil impulse but, in my experience, WSF is more accurate than TG. So why not use WSF for jacketed bullets?

Recoil impulse with TG is better than WSF and I can shoot TG more accurately in a match. It just takes me longer to get the front sight back with WSF. More of a personal preference for me, softer or snappier... I like softer.

[LikesToShoot]

Cy,

Thanks for sharing your experiences and load data.

I haven't started loading for next year yet and may have to revisit the 124gr load again.

(I sure like Precision Delta 147gr and 3.6gr TG)

Have you ever tried MG 130gr FMJ, .356" super bullets for a 9mm load. I've seen this mentioned a few places and was considering giving it a try.

[Cy Soto]

Cy,

Thanks for sharing your experiences and load data.

I haven't started loading for next year yet and may have to revisit the 124gr load again.

(I sure like Precision Delta 147gr and 3.6gr TG)

Have you ever tried MG 130gr FMJ, .356" super bullets for a 9mm load. I've seen this mentioned a few places and was considering giving it a try.

I haven't tried the 130gr MG but I have shot 135gr bare lead bullets. I wish Zero bullets would still be manufacturing their 135gr FMJ bullets. I would certainly try them if they did.

The MG bullets are 0.356" which are sized for 38 Super. I wouldn't be opposed to try them in 9mm but I don't want to purchase a case of them and then find out that they don't work as I would like them too.