6 Inch sight trackers, are they legal?

[mra8541]

I've heard that some 6" guns (limited) are legal and some are not... Like a 6" sight tracker is not legal?? Now this is just in the rumor stage for me, no one knew where to find this "RULE" so I'm wondering if someone can point me in the right direction and also if a regular 6" is ok, why isn't a sight tracker??

Thanks forum guys...

[ParaGunner]

6" sight trackers are not legal at this time.

[Pat Miles]

For a particular gun or version thereof the manufacturer has to have sold 500 units to the public before it is legal per USPSA. The gun has to fit in the particular division rules of the USPSA to be used in that division. Manufacturers have sold the minimum 500 units of the 6" gun that fits the USPSA Limited Division rules and thus are legal. The same manufacturers have not sold (or even offered ?) 500 6" Lilmited Sight Tracker guns and so are not legal. By having to follow this rule a manufacturer cannot produce a few guns that their sponsored shooters would use and have an advantage over everybody else who could not get one. The 500 number helps ensure that the price of the guns is reasonable enough that John Q. Public can afford to purchase one if he wishes.

Pat

[mra8541]

Pat, that's some great info on that, thanks a lot and for the explanation as to why...

[RangerTrace]

This is true, but I have shot against some folks shooting 6" sight trackers in USPSA local matches

[Joe4d]

and the 500 rule seems to be randomly applied to either guns or parts, One day, there has to be 500 hundred parts made, another a complete gun, This needs to be fixed, for instance the 6" sight tracker, well there arnt 500 complete guns made, so not legal, But TJ can shoot a 6" para ordnance ? Even though at that point Para had never made a 6" gun, well the answer then was there were 500 6" slides and barrels, So basically there does seem to be different standards depending on the shooter and brand.

[mra8541]

I did see TJ shooting that 6" about 2 weeks ago, no wonder I lost, haha... That's why I'm looking a definite rule and where is it posted/written at...

[waktasz]

This is true, but I have shot against some folks shooting 6" sight trackers in USPSA local matches

They should be in Open then

[G-ManBart]

For a particular gun or version thereof the manufacturer has to have sold 500 units to the public before it is legal per USPSA. The gun has to fit in the particular division rules of the USPSA to be used in that division. Manufacturers have sold the minimum 500 units of the 6" gun that fits the USPSA Limited Division rules and thus are legal. The same manufacturers have not sold (or even offered ?) 500 6" Lilmited Sight Tracker guns and so are not legal. By having to follow this rule a manufacturer cannot produce a few guns that their sponsored shooters would use and have an advantage over everybody else who could not get one. The 500 number helps ensure that the price of the guns is reasonable enough that John Q. Public can afford to purchase one if he wishes.

Pat

Not entirely true. The rule states:

Special conditions:

— Any complete handgun or components with a minimum production of 500

units by a factory and available to the general public.

— A complete handgun may be approved for USPSA Limited Division after

the NROI Manufacturer’s Declaration form stating that a minimum of 500

have been manufactured and available to the general public has been submitted

and NROI has inspected the handgun for compliance.

I was there when Mike Calloway from Schuemann was talking to John Amidon (Nationals 2009) about this very topic. I believe the answer was Mike would need to ask his AD to have the question brought before the BOD, and would need to supply a letter stating 500+ 6" barrels with raised ribs had been produced. I'm not sure where that is now, but I recall Mike saying he was going to try and get the ball rolling. R,

Edit to add a link to the previous discussion:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=55341&view=findpost&p=641994

Edited November 19, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Pat Miles]

For a particular gun or version thereof the manufacturer has to have sold 500 units to the public before it is legal per USPSA. The gun has to fit in the particular division rules of the USPSA to be used in that division. Manufacturers have sold the minimum 500 units of the 6" gun that fits the USPSA Limited Division rules and thus are legal. The same manufacturers have not sold (or even offered ?) 500 6" Lilmited Sight Tracker guns and so are not legal. By having to follow this rule a manufacturer cannot produce a few guns that their sponsored shooters would use and have an advantage over everybody else who could not get one. The 500 number helps ensure that the price of the guns is reasonable enough that John Q. Public can afford to purchase one if he wishes.

Pat

Not entirely true. The rule states:

Special conditions:

— Any complete handgun or components with a minimum production of 500

units by a factory and available to the general public.

— A complete handgun may be approved for USPSA Limited Division after

the NROI Manufacturer’s Declaration form stating that a minimum of 500

have been manufactured and available to the general public has been submitted

and NROI has inspected the handgun for compliance.

I was there when Mike Calloway from Schuemann was talking to John Amidon (Nationals 2009) about this very topic. I believe the answer was Mike would need to ask his AD to have the question brought before the BOD, and would need to supply a letter stating 500+ 6" barrels with raised ribs had been produced. I'm not sure where that is now, but I recall Mike saying he was going to try and get the ball rolling. R,

Edit to add a link to the previous discussion:

http://www.brianenos...ndpost&p=641994

Given that the barrel is the defining component of a 6" Sight Tracker style gun I can see the logic in that decision.

Pat

[G-ManBart]

Given that the barrel is the defining component of a 6" Sight Tracker style gun I can see the logic in that decision.

Pat

Yeah, but you know what they say about logic...well, I'm not really sure what they say, but there must be something that fits

[Pat Miles]

Given that the barrel is the defining component of a 6" Sight Tracker style gun I can see the logic in that decision.

Pat

Yeah, but you know what they say about logic...well, I'm not really sure what they say, but there must be something that fits

Yeah, I recall Mr. Spock rambling on about logic.

Pat

[ogiebb]

Hi August,

To this date, I have not received any such paper work stipulating that the require amount of 500 have been produced and available to the public.

I have heard that some manufacturer seems to have made the proper amount, but has not come forward requesting the form.

Regards,

John Amidon

this is the last email i got from John Amidon...i have also emailed the said manufacturer and they are already working on it , it should not be long that this will be legal soon.

Edited November 20, 2010 by ogiebb

[ogiebb]

Well hopefully....

[Nik Habicht]

Wouldn't someone also need to make 500 slides? The slides would seem to be sufficiently different from standard six inch slides, to need certification.....

Personally, I'd like to just abolish the 500 requirement -- now that there are other divisions, and considering how many platforms are competitive in Limited, why the restriction?

Am I missing some game changer?

[waktasz]

I'd just a 6 inch slide with cuts out of it

[G-ManBart]

Wouldn't someone also need to make 500 slides? The slides would seem to be sufficiently different from standard six inch slides, to need certification.....

Personally, I'd like to just abolish the 500 requirement -- now that there are other divisions, and considering how many platforms are competitive in Limited, why the restriction?

Am I missing some game changer?

For the first part, I think it would depend on how the process went when they first allowed standard 6" guns. Did they approve them based upon 500 barrels, 500 slides, or both? If they did it on just one or the other, then 500 6" sight tracker barrels should suffice, given the precedent.

I don't think you're missing anything. I can't imagine anything that isn't already within the rules that would suddenly change the playing field in Limited if "prototype" guns/parts were allowed. R,

Edited November 20, 2010 by G-ManBart

[wide45]

I have a hard time saying there should be no limits at all, other than no optic or comp.

IPSC uses the Box, an option no longer available to us.

[Nik Habicht]

I have a hard time saying there should be no limits at all, other than no optic or comp.

IPSC uses the Box, an option no longer available to us.

You've been around longer than most of us --- why do you have a hard time saying limits other than no optics, comps, ports, devices strictly to control recoil, or mags over 141.25 (DS) or 171.25 (SS)?

What does 500 manufactured get us? What prototypes do you envision that might be game changers?

I have no desire to make equipment obsolete.....

[RAZZ]

I shot against a guy at the Florida State match earlier this year that was shooting a 6" sight tracker. I did't realize it wasn't legal then.

And yes, Para does make a 6" gun--couple of them, actually. http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=71

[Joe4d]

My post said,

"Even though at that point Para had never made a 6" gun,"

I am well aware of para's 6 inch guns which are .45 . the sight tracker was aproved only in 40 and only on a S-I frame and only on in 5".

I see no logical way you can say a sight tracker of a different caliber or different length or on a Caspian or para frame is not allowed because there arnt 500 complete guns, but someone can use a 6" 40 Para because there are 500 6" slides and barrels.

I guess if Schuemann had a couple paid shooters and sponsored a few more matches suddenly they would be ok, Honestly I dont see the big deal, the sight trackers didnt really set the world on fire and dont dominate the 5" market but there should be a uniform application of the rules, the configuration is either allowed or it isnt.

So many guns out there nowadays are modular, trying to apply a "Complete gun " standard is pretty hypocritical, lots and lots of custom builders putting together parts that were never assembled the same way 500 times.

[RAZZ]

.

Edited November 21, 2010 by RAZZ

[mra8541]

For a particular gun or version thereof the manufacturer has to have sold 500 units to the public before it is legal per USPSA. The gun has to fit in the particular division rules of the USPSA to be used in that division. Manufacturers have sold the minimum 500 units of the 6" gun that fits the USPSA Limited Division rules and thus are legal. The same manufacturers have not sold (or even offered ?) 500 6" Lilmited Sight Tracker guns and so are not legal. By having to follow this rule a manufacturer cannot produce a few guns that their sponsored shooters would use and have an advantage over everybody else who could not get one. The 500 number helps ensure that the price of the guns is reasonable enough that John Q. Public can afford to purchase one if he wishes.

Pat

Not entirely true. The rule states:

Special conditions:

— Any complete handgun or components with a minimum production of 500

units by a factory and available to the general public.

— A complete handgun may be approved for USPSA Limited Division after

the NROI Manufacturer’s Declaration form stating that a minimum of 500

have been manufactured and available to the general public has been submitted

and NROI has inspected the handgun for compliance.

I was there when Mike Calloway from Schuemann was talking to John Amidon (Nationals 2009) about this very topic. I believe the answer was Mike would need to ask his AD to have the question brought before the BOD, and would need to supply a letter stating 500+ 6" barrels with raised ribs had been produced. I'm not sure where that is now, but I recall Mike saying he was going to try and get the ball rolling. R,

Edit to add a link to the previous discussion:

http://www.brianenos...ndpost&p=641994

Given that the barrel is the defining component of a 6" Sight Tracker style gun I can see the logic in that decision.

Pat

Makes sense... I'll have to check with the BOD and see how that works...

[MoNsTeR]

For a particular gun or version thereof the manufacturer has to have sold 500 units to the public before it is legal per USPSA. The gun has to fit in the particular division rules of the USPSA to be used in that division. Manufacturers have sold the minimum 500 units of the 6" gun that fits the USPSA Limited Division rules and thus are legal. The same manufacturers have not sold (or even offered ?) 500 6" Lilmited Sight Tracker guns and so are not legal. By having to follow this rule a manufacturer cannot produce a few guns that their sponsored shooters would use and have an advantage over everybody else who could not get one. The 500 number helps ensure that the price of the guns is reasonable enough that John Q. Public can afford to purchase one if he wishes.

Pat

Not entirely true. The rule states:

Special conditions:

— Any complete handgun or components with a minimum production of 500

units by a factory and available to the general public.

— A complete handgun may be approved for USPSA Limited Division after

the NROI Manufacturer’s Declaration form stating that a minimum of 500

have been manufactured and available to the general public has been submitted

and NROI has inspected the handgun for compliance.

I was there when Mike Calloway from Schuemann was talking to John Amidon (Nationals 2009) about this very topic. I believe the answer was Mike would need to ask his AD to have the question brought before the BOD, and would need to supply a letter stating 500+ 6" barrels with raised ribs had been produced. I'm not sure where that is now, but I recall Mike saying he was going to try and get the ball rolling. R,

Edit to add a link to the previous discussion:

http://www.brianenos...ndpost&p=641994

Given that the barrel is the defining component of a 6" Sight Tracker style gun I can see the logic in that decision.

Pat

I can't. There's no meaningful difference between a 5" and a 6" anything on the 1911/2011. Nor any difference between fitting barrel X to frame Y vs. frame Z. It's a modular platform, and the rules completely fail to take that into account. The current interpretations are unjustifiably silly and need to be drastically revised.

[G-ManBart]

I can't. There's no meaningful difference between a 5" and a 6" anything on the 1911/2011. Nor any difference between fitting barrel X to frame Y vs. frame Z. It's a modular platform, and the rules completely fail to take that into account. The current interpretations are unjustifiably silly and need to be drastically revised.

You can't take things in a vacuum or it loses context. When the divisions were created, 6" guns had been around for years, so it was beyond obvious that 500 of them had been manufactured. Barrels with ribs that protrude through the slide are a different matter entirely.

When 5" sight trackers were first approved they would have had to go through the process of submitting proof that 500 of the guns, or barrels had been manufactured. So, all that needs to happen, is have proof submitted that 500 of the 6" sight tracker style barrels have been made, but it takes someone who can propose rule changes to get it before the Board.